Meat

[M_surinamensis]

I don't really want to get banned either, so I'll keep this nice and neutral.

In retrospect, I kind of want to take that line back. I'd edit it out, but people already read it and quoted it.

I still don't want to get banned, but it strongly implies that I might, if I weren't restraining myself from making rude or aggressive comments on the subject. I admit, my first response was along the lines of "Fish? What? Fish?! No! Who?!" and a rejection of the idea... but that rejection comes from knowledge and if someone else hasn't considered the topic before, they may not have the same kind of background.

We don't actually feed many captive animals their natural prey species. We mostly use nutritional analogues, something that is like what they would eat in the wild, but that we can easily breed and have available. Domesticated mice, crickets and mealworms, feeder goldfish (still awful), guppies, earthworms, roaches and various other commonly used prey items are not exactly what the animals we keep as pets would eat in the wild. We rarely use african striped grass mice and the exact species of local insect. We find something that is as close as possible and then we fill in any gaps with micromanagement of portions and supplements, gut loading and dusting the feeders.

There's still a lot of debate and a lot of different practices when it comes to feeder substitutions too, less with leopard geckos, but there can be a lot of diversity in the feeders people select for snakes, turtles and larger lizard species. Snakes that usually eat frogs, lizards or other snakes are often transitioned over to rodents, with adjustments then made to correct for the nutritional differences. Monitors, tegus, predatory turtles, most herbivorous species... we fit together their nutritional needs like a puzzle, piecing together something that works from what we have. How different is too different is often a subject of intense debate and discussion.

It's a question I have previously encountered, considered and worked out when it came up for me with other species. So it seems obvious to me, but only 'cause it was something I wondered about years ago.

So the question is not actually without basis. The answer in this case is actually a lot easier and more clear cut than it is for some other species and some other substitutions; leos shouldn't eat fish... but the question itself is nothing to get irritated at.

TLDR version for those unable to handle more that three lines of text or who think "lol" is punctuation: Questions are okay. Interesting discussion. LOLLMFAOROFLCOPTER!!!1!!111!!one!!eleven!!

 

[fuzzylogix]

lol. why do you have to write a "book" every time you answer a post??? all these big long explanations and "big words" make you look smart??? or are you a college professor??? lol, just wondering why you cant just get to the point and not go into some rediculous drug out chapter???

I think Seamus nailed it, as he usually does. If more people here would actually take the time to read some of his responses, we might not have all the redundant threads being posted multiple times a day. I think we are lucky to have someone as educated and opinionated as him on this forum, and we need more here like that. This forum can be fun as well as educational, but we are talking about animals lives here. My advice to you would be to read more and post less. There was absolutely nothing "rediculous" about what he posted. But what you posted on the other hand....

 

[Thorgecko707]

Seamus, I have been waiting for you to comment. Of course I haven't actually fed fish to my geckos, they are still alive. I was curious to the question of meat and fish fed to geckos. You didn't however comment on the rat meat rather than pinkies. Your knowledge is far superior than mine so I thank you for commenting. Good call on the fact that we don't feed native food to them. I welcome your long posts because I soak in all that tastey information.

 

[M_surinamensis]

You didn't however comment on the rat meat rather than pinkies.

Those two items are nutritionally closer to one another than either of them is to beef, but they aren't identical.

One of the things that comes up a lot in discussions about the general topic, especially in the cases of things like monitor lizards or tegus, is the concept of whole prey. A pinky, being an entire juvenile animal, has a lot of different kinds of tissue present in one body. The larger lizard crowd usually looks at whole prey as a way of getting a lot of trace nutrients, the brain, liver, lungs and bones have individual nutritional contents that are different from the muscle and fat of which partial food items would usually consist. It works both ways though, the percentage of the total meal that's made up of fat (as an example of something to be regulated) is lower on a whole prey item than it would be for some portions of a partial prey item; it ends up being total nutritional value divided by mass, adjusted for digestibility.

There are a lot of variables involved in exactly what a given individual animal will take from a given prey item, so it's usually discussed in generalities. This prey item is very fatty, that one contains a lot of calcium, this one is high in protein. Then it falls on the owner of each animal to use their own judgment about which prey items are best for their animal, in what kind of quantities and frequency. If an animal is obese, we cut it back. If an animal is thin, we try to safely increase their intake. If an animal was just bred and is producing eggs, we boost the calcium a little bit. If we see the slow development of eye issues, we might manipulate vitamin A intake and so on and so on and so on.

With regard to leopard geckos, pinkies, rats and other meats... Pinkies are rarely necessary but are sometimes utilized as an infrequent supplement when an animal's nutritional health seems like it could benefit from a large intake of protein and fat. Rat parts I'd tend to mostly avoid, simply because there are more convenient and better balanced alternatives and it becomes more difficult to judge the exact content of the part being used. Things like beef or pork I'd avoid entirely.*

One of the other things to consider with feeding not-normal-prey-items, even from time to time is the digestibility. The digestive tract of a leopard gecko is really built to eat bugs, the shape, the length, the duration that food remains in each section of it, the order in which enzymes are released and nutrients are absorbed; all built for bugs. The shape, the density, the exoskeleton and the semi-solid innards, the way a bug is built isn't the same as other food items. It can pretty dramatically change what ends up being digested and absorbed and what ends up being passed. It can sometimes result in digestive upset (usually minor), when the wrong kinds of nutrients end up in organ systems that aren't built to handle them. What a gecko (or any other animal, really) ends up taking from a prey item that is significantly dissimilar from what it has evolved to eat can be an unknown. So you may be feeding something they don't normally eat because it's full of calcium, but it's possible that all they ended up digesting and utilizing were lipids.

With leos, it's pretty easy. Stick to bugs, unless you've got a really solid reason to try something else and then consider it heavily before going ahead.

*there are some individuals who have had success using beef baby food as an ingredient in slurry mixes. I do not use it. They aren't wrong to consider it as an ingredient in carefully measured moderation for animals that need an intensive dose of protein, it just doesn't mesh well with the way I approach nutrition for my pets. Different schools of thought about captive diets mostly.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Like Seamus stated, 'meat' is really not a natural food source for leopard geckos. I'm sure that in the wild they might stumble upon a mouse nest and feed on the pinkies, but it certainly is not their primary source of food. Leopard geckos are primarily insectivores, and an occasional pinky mouse for underweight, egging females can help... but remember that these little rodents have bellies full of milk, and most reptiles cannot process the lactose in milk in their GI systems. Also, in their natural habitat, there are no bodies of water, and since geckos can't swim, the logic of feeding them fish is not an option. It isn't even close to being natural.

I do use 5 oz. of canned Hill's A/D (meat) in my GGG slurry because it is high in protein, calories, and pasteurized, but it is not the primary ingredient. It's the mealworms that makes it a better choice for anorexic geckos. Blending crickets will make the slurry rotten in no time. I also use squash, which is not a natural food for leopard geckos. It does however, provide a good source of complex carbohydrate and tends to bind in the geckos intestines, meaning, it keeps the food in the intestines longer for better absorption. This slurry only helps when they have been off food and under the care of a vet.

But for a normal, healthy gecko that is feeding well, stick with what their natural food source is. Bugs.

So if anyone wants to rip me for posting a response that is more than 3 sentences, have at it. :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[im faster]

I understand the natural diet thing to some extent..
however..
a super worm.. or phoenix worm or dubias for that matter are not a natural diet either are they?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

a super worm.. or phoenix worm or dubias for that matter are not a natural diet either are they?

No, they aren't. They don't have many crickets in the mountains of the Middle East, either. There are roaches, lots of locust, spiders, larvae, grubs, and other bugs and beetles, as well as small reptiles that make up the primary food source of leopard geckos in the wild. We can't have locust here in the USA, so crickets have the closest nutritional value.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I do use 5 oz. of canned Hill's A/D (meat) in my GGG slurry because it is high in protein, calories, and pasteurized, but it is not the primary ingredient. It's the mealworms that makes it a better choice for anorexic geckos. Blending crickets will make the slurry rotten in no time. I also use squash, which is not a natural food for leopard geckos. It does however, provide a good source of complex carbohydrate and tends to bind in the geckos intestines, meaning, it keeps the food in the intestines longer for better absorption. This slurry only helps when they have been off food and under the care of a vet.

Just wanted to toss you a quick, personal thanks, Marcia. That is exactly the kind of scenario I was talking about, when careful, calculated and thoroughly thought out substitutions may be situationally appropriate. Measured, balanced and tested, used when necessary and then back to the regular diet when the animal has regular needs. It also shows the kind of intelligent and studied breakdown that should go into a decision to move away from the normal prey items (or analogues).

It's a very different choice than chucking in whatever happens to be around or trying things at random. Not that anyone here was doing that... but I have run into people who fed their red eared slider nothing but hot-dogs and people who used raw grocery store chicken to feed their snakes.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Like Seamus stated, 'meat' is really not a natural food source for leopard geckos. I'm sure that in the wild they might stumble upon a mouse nest and feed on the pinkies, but it certainly is not their primary source of food.

Whatever, I'm stealing Ray's world's largest leo and training it to take down Serengeti Plains mammalian mega-fauna prey items. Meat's not a natural food source, ha!

I also like that replies must be no more than 3 sentences. I'm going to further that and include that they should be no longer than 3 sentences AND 25 words or less!

 

[Tony C]

ROFLCOPTER!!!1!!111!!one!!eleven!!

 

[TokayKeeper]

oh sh....!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. How did I miss Seamus' eleven?

 

[fuzzylogix]

 

[fl_orchidslave]

You guys really should get out more

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

You guys really should get out more

... or eat more meat.

 

[Tony C]

... or eat more meat.

Filet of rat?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Rat filets are more substantial than mouse, though not as tender.

 

[Russ S]

I prefer my rats batter dipped and deep fried, plus they have a built in handle.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

They're pretty good with the right kind of sauce.

 

[robin]

 

[TokayKeeper]

commercial rats tend to be higher in fat...I'll take multiple mice dipped in some lemon pepper marinade.