Muddy Waters......

boutiquegecko

New Member
Messages
1,028
Location
Seminole, Fl
Well as far as enigmas adding mud to the water-I'll use mine as an example. I bought him 50% het for bell. So what do I do as a breeder, since mine does not circle? Do I test breed him out, hence making more mutts, or sell any possible offspring as a poss het bell? He's proven out an enigma that is double het bell and lv blazing blizzard. Regardless what I breed him to, the offspring will be double het for both albinos.
The enigma that I bred from him, does not circle either. But then he's another one. He's a bell enigma % het lvbb. Breed or not breed? I have two beautiful males that either sit on the shelf as pets, or I can breed and disclose the hets.
I for one am all for cleaning up some of the genes, even though that contradicts my wanting to breed my enigmas. I have old school Bell genes and am keeping that line clean.
 

BSM

New Member
Messages
532
Marlo i see nothing wrong with breeding him to any las vegas albinos as with any cross there will be a 25% chance there het bell. I wouldn't prove him out, just out breed to as many LV albinos and you wont have a problem.

I find it funny when people consider dh albinos mutts when there all the same species, the same thing goes for dogs a matter of fact.

With the project im working on right now, I have 2 decisions.
1.prove out my 3 eclipses to be het tremper albino or not then breed them to other strain of albinos later. (1 is a giant)
2. Breed to the other albino types and hope they turned out to be non hets or that the tremper albino gene didnt go over

Im not going to name names but when i mention this, everyone will know who it is. A while ago i saw a snow enigma het bell, tremper and eclipse for sale for 900 and the ad was saying be the first to create dreamsicles radars and to me this seems to be the problem most people dont want. Anyone can breed for example a raptor to a snow bell enigma and get this cross but to me it defeats the purpose of trying to get a enigma radar bell and charging that much for it as well is ridiculously especially Since it took one generation and not from proving or breeding a 50% het to a bell snow enigma

My 2 cents on this
Bryan
 

GeckoGoon

New Member
Messages
83
Location
Torrance, CA
I know this is somewhat of an old topic, but whats everyone's opinion on taking afghanicus and breeding them with morphs?
I've seen it done and I personally do not like it.
 

BSM

New Member
Messages
532
Afgans are subspecies and bring in new/good blood to a line when bred into them. All the leos here are already are a mixture of different sub species so it doesnt really matter plus as i said above subspecies can be used to bring in new blood to a line
 

Tony C

Wayward Frogger
Messages
3,899
Location
Columbia, SC
I know this is somewhat of an old topic, but whats everyone's opinion on taking afghanicus and breeding them with morphs?
I've seen it done and I personally do not like it.
As long as they are also being bred to other afghans to preserve the subspecies I don't see any problem with using them for outcrossing.
 

zwara

New Member
Messages
44
Location
Portugal
this message goes as my personal opinion only, for begining i'm quiet new on this compared to many of user's here. I have started my passion for geckos in late 2007, when i bought my first gecko a Hi-yellow non het, and then the gecko bug beggin to grow in me, and passed 5 months i bought my first "fased" gecko, a female mack snow blizzard poss 50% Tremper albino, with 2 solid black eye's

after a while i was decided to grow the mack with de Hy only for hobby, no money porpuse, but in this time i begin to think why breed this 2 and create normal's and mack both het for blizzard and 25% poss het for tremper albino, so I begin to study my projects and what I could do! I decided to dedicate my time and breeding project to raptor's.

doing this a can prove my female mack breeding it to a raptor and no messing around to much genes.

now, i'll only work with raptor's my main project is getting a mack raptor in my baby's... and perfecting(the simple recessive genes that compose raptor - eclipse and tremper albino), since the patternless stripe is already to them difficult to see :(.

so what i'm trying to say is that my life with geckos is circunscripte with only mack, tremper, eclipse, wont get any further than that.

actualy i'm tryng to get another female a raptoglow (sunglow raptor), but has said I still get along with raptor's, and this will last this way for long year's till i achieve all my projects with only this fases...

now the problem beggins here, the pro's and mass breeder's don´t stick to only 3 or 4 fases=traits they breed 15/16 fases in one year, and i understand that is their way of earning money, but if we want to change something when we still can, we need so begin from the top, the mass breders need to put their hand in the conscious minds and see what they can do to help preservate the especie, and not only think in what is the new possible combo triple or fourth recessive combination.

has for enigmas well, has any one see matrix ??? remember agent smith as the humanity virus (decease) that was threatning all, well i see enigmas has mr smith, in gecko world , is nothing more than a desease carrier...

now and for helping this part of cleaning I'll try to help clening the tremper's and the eclipse... since those are 2 of the 3 straits i'm working with, can be a newbie breeder but the mentality has to change, and if the newbie's begin to thinks that the importante is not getting hold the latest combo, but still is more far more importante preservate the blood line in this espicie clean, that is a begining.

now sorry for my english has you can see in the profile i'm portuguese.

cheer's to all comunity and thanks for letting participate in one IMPORTANTE problem has this one.

Luis.
 
P

pb001

Guest
I agree with a lot of you it seems. I am getting into this with both feet hard. I'm trying to absorb as much info as I can but it can be confusing and kind of WTH? when I first read about the enigmas I was like wth, seriously why? That doesn't make any sense. when I'm looking for geckos I want the breeder to give me a good reason to buy a blah blah blah super duper combo this and that, thats het for this one and that one, and possible het blah blah. Am I make any sense or am I just a babbling idiot. Uh maybe the latter now that I listen to myself. I want to breed more morphs I don't want to make money, enough to support the hobby a bit would be great and have fun and learn something.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

Josh in CA

Guest
OK, I'm not a breeder of geckos {yet} but in my opinion the big breeders are trying to make hobby breeders jobs to easy, but in the path to doing this there destroying the breed. not certain breeders take a project and stick with it{phantoms as a ex..} but to many are crossing for two or more traits then marking them up since there het for many different morphs so that people don't need to wait more then one generation. hobby breeds are also at fault by being to lazy to breed here desired morphs. the best possibility to clean up the lines would be to not buy geckos that are het for more then one trait. At least this is what i think.
 

Grip Fast

“Ballinbreich”
Messages
62
Location
Redmond, Wa
so if a guy was to breed leos with out all the het het het what would be a good choice? SHTCTB's sunglows pure albino's:main_huh:

could some one make up a list of all the pure morphs:main_huh::main_huh:
 

paulh

New Member
Messages
128
Location
Ames, Iowa, USA

fallen_angel

Fallen Angel's Geckos
Messages
7,937
Location
Stockton, CA
first the waters are never going to clear,
with the explosion of leo breeding the past few years, and in particluar the enigma crosses i think we've seen just about everytihng happen that could...

i mean, do you understand what this looks like to the outside community?

i am embrassed when peope, ask about enigmas. to tell them that an animal with a known defect has been purposefully, and intentionally bred, in mass quanitities and released for the sake of huge profits..

i mean let's not joke ourselves breeding is for money and continuance of a species.
hobby breeding is usually done for love and money , if you are lucky.
but to purposefully breed an animal that you cannot truthfully tell someone will NEVER run in circles, Come on., there is a repsonsibility as a breeder to breed healthy animals-to not perpetuate defects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the leo community couldn't handle this mess, so don't think they will
'clean up' anything. this genetic mutation was handled as a pure commodity, with marketing and even purposeful routes of sales into the breeding population, it was calculated to gain the most profits possible knowing that it would explode as it is a dominant gene.

how am i supposed to feel when someone asks me about enigmas?
tell them, *maybe *it won't run in circles...
sad. pitiful

the people who discovered it had a chance to do the right thing and they didn't. you can't expect anyone else to fix this now.

as for the million mutt enigma crosses out there, and by products..
i think it;'s clear that the release of the enigma signaled a new phase of leo breeding, the 'i don't care about ethics' phase.

it's disturbing, but i think it gave many people the impression that leo breeders are barely holding onto any ethics whatsoever if at all.

for the people that bought circling enigmas, i am sorry,
for breeders of these animals:
the excuse that 'other animals have been bred before that have known problems' is not a good, one. doesn't make it right.
btw. thanks for adding unhealthy animals to the genetic pool we are dealing with- great

it was done for the wrong reasons, done for money, and it was a huge let down. i am ashamed to tell family and friends about this morph and what it has done to the hobby.

"oh, that morph, well yeah, it runs in circles, sometimes, not always...well the other ones don't do it, yet, as far as i know, what? oh yeah, this is a hugely popular..yes people still sell them and breed them, i know, i know.."

if you were one of the "lucky' ones to get in at the beginning you made some loot, sure. you also sent a clear message to everyone after you:

IT'S OK TO DO ANYTHING YOU WANT IN THE NAME OF YOUR PERSONAL 'DISCOVERY' MISSION TO PROPAGATE ANIMALS AND MAKE MONEY.

there lesson #1 for potential new breeders, do what you want
everyone else does anyway

-professional enigma breeders as a general whole- failed-
As far as I understand, once the morph was discovered and the issue was at hand, people kept breeding the morph in an attempt to lessen the issue.. as more and more Enigmas have been bred with other morphs, there are many that do not exhibit any neurological issues whatsoever. Nowadays, most Enigmas don't have significant problems, and it's always been more severe in albino strains.

This isn't the first time this has happened.. Mack Snows were very weak animals at first and wouldn't live much into adulthood. Super Snows started out to be extremely small, and weak.. by continuing to breed them, to try to strengthen the line, was the only way to get rid of the issue.

Your comments are extreme at best, you should consider the other side of things once in awhile..
 

BrilliantEraser

Bookworm!
Messages
388
Location
Connecticut
As far as I understand, once the morph was discovered and the issue was at hand, people kept breeding the morph in an attempt to lessen the issue.. as more and more Enigmas have been bred with other morphs, there are many that do not exhibit any neurological issues whatsoever. Nowadays, most Enigmas don't have significant problems, and it's always been more severe in albino strains.

This isn't the first time this has happened.. Mack Snows were very weak animals at first and wouldn't live much into adulthood. Super Snows started out to be extremely small, and weak.. by continuing to breed them, to try to strengthen the line, was the only way to get rid of the issue.

Your comments are extreme at best, you should consider the other side of things once in awhile..

THANK YOU! As an owner of a Mack Snow Enigma (and a future breeder of Super Snow Enigmas, I hope!), I find these sorts of comments to be almost personal attacks on myself. Wrex has essentially NONE of the Enigma Syndrome issues. The "circling" that is often talked about only occurs when Wrex gets too excited about whatever is going on. Sorry, just needed to vent!
:eek:
 

fallen_angel

Fallen Angel's Geckos
Messages
7,937
Location
Stockton, CA
Best of luck to making Super Snow Enigmas :)

The only Enigmas that we have that have any issues at all are albino Enigmas (Bell, RAPTOR).. our Mack Snow Enigmas that we keep and produce do not exhibit issues really.. some had the wobbles *a little* but that was it.. our Super Snow Enigma does not show any signs of any type of issue whatsoever
 
R

Razerwire

Guest
Wow nice thread. This is my issue back when the enigmas came out I was ready to shell out the few grand they were beautiful. But thank fully I heard about the issues pretty much about a month before I was going to buy them. Let me show the catch phrases that bug me to death.

our Mack Snow Enigmas that we keep and produce do not exhibit issues really.. some had the wobbles *a little* but that was it..

Wrex has essentially NONE of the Enigma Syndrome issues. The "circling" that is often talked about only occurs when Wrex gets too excited

It is common for many of people who breed the enigmas to use this word play that I find the most bothersome. It is as if we have turned into used car salesmen and we know there is something a matter but if we can make the buyer feel ok with the problem then who cares. At what point is a defect to much of a defect? Where will we draw the line. I personally love the Leos and was forced out of my fav past time....... I am sneaking back just dont tell the X lol...... But this time around I find myself wanting to keep clear of Leos there has been alot of work to get every look under the sun. We come to the point where we can turn our heads over minor defects. But in reality What happens when we have tainted the waters so much so that we start having reproductive issues across the board and there is no saving them at that point. I know I may sound a bit dramatic but we must not only think of our pockets and also think the animal at some point. just my 2 cents.

Sorry I now this might bug ppl
Razerwire
 

roger

New Member
Messages
2,438
Location
Toronto ,Canada
first the waters are never going to clear,
with the explosion of leo breeding the past few years, and in particluar the enigma crosses i think we've seen just about everytihng happen that could...

i mean, do you understand what this looks like to the outside community?

i am embrassed when peope, ask about enigmas. to tell them that an animal with a known defect has been purposefully, and intentionally bred, in mass quanitities and released for the sake of huge profits..

i mean let's not joke ourselves breeding is for money and continuance of a species.
hobby breeding is usually done for love and money , if you are lucky.
but to purposefully breed an animal that you cannot truthfully tell someone will NEVER run in circles, Come on., there is a repsonsibility as a breeder to breed healthy animals-to not perpetuate defects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the leo community couldn't handle this mess, so don't think they will
'clean up' anything. this genetic mutation was handled as a pure commodity, with marketing and even purposeful routes of sales into the breeding population, it was calculated to gain the most profits possible knowing that it would explode as it is a dominant gene.

how am i supposed to feel when someone asks me about enigmas?
tell them, *maybe *it won't run in circles...
sad. pitiful

the people who discovered it had a chance to do the right thing and they didn't. you can't expect anyone else to fix this now.

as for the million mutt enigma crosses out there, and by products..
i think it;'s clear that the release of the enigma signaled a new phase of leo breeding, the 'i don't care about ethics' phase.

it's disturbing, but i think it gave many people the impression that leo breeders are barely holding onto any ethics whatsoever if at all.

for the people that bought circling enigmas, i am sorry,
for breeders of these animals:
the excuse that 'other animals have been bred before that have known problems' is not a good, one. doesn't make it right.
btw. thanks for adding unhealthy animals to the genetic pool we are dealing with- great

it was done for the wrong reasons, done for money, and it was a huge let down. i am ashamed to tell family and friends about this morph and what it has done to the hobby.

"oh, that morph, well yeah, it runs in circles, sometimes, not always...well the other ones don't do it, yet, as far as i know, what? oh yeah, this is a hugely popular..yes people still sell them and breed them, i know, i know.."

if you were one of the "lucky' ones to get in at the beginning you made some loot, sure. you also sent a clear message to everyone after you:

IT'S OK TO DO ANYTHING YOU WANT IN THE NAME OF YOUR PERSONAL 'DISCOVERY' MISSION TO PROPAGATE ANIMALS AND MAKE MONEY.

there lesson #1 for potential new breeders, do what you want
everyone else does anyway

-professional enigma breeders as a general whole- failed-
Man i couldn't have said it better!!! i agree 100% with all that you said.
 

natedogg

New Member
Messages
13
This is sooo confusing for someone trying to learn about this hobby. I have had leos for a little over a year now. I have "normals" no biggy. I thought it would be fun to raise some so I bought some new lizzards to breed. Imagine my concern when my new lizzard gets home and she wont stop circling and swaying her head. I have affectionately named her Stevie! I asked about this and was told that this is normal for Enigmas!

I would have to agree with those of you who believe Enigmas should not be bred. I like my Enigma as a pet. She is very nice to look at, especially when she is standing still. I would never want to sell or even give someone a lizzard that has problems. Would any of you, in your daily line of work, want to pass off on something that you knew to be defective? What would your coworkers, managers, employees think?

1st post.. sorry if it comes across the wrong way.

BTW... are there any other morphs that have problems like this? I would like to spend my money wisely next time.
 
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