Muddy Waters......

Jgreen909

New Member
Messages
48
Location
So Cal.
THANK YOU! As an owner of a Mack Snow Enigma (and a future breeder of Super Snow Enigmas, I hope!), I find these sorts of comments to be almost personal attacks on myself. Wrex has essentially NONE of the Enigma Syndrome issues. The "circling" that is often talked about only occurs when Wrex gets too excited about whatever is going on. Sorry, just needed to vent!
:eek:
Best of luck to making Super Snow Enigmas :)

The only Enigmas that we have that have any issues at all are albino Enigmas (Bell, RAPTOR).. our Mack Snow Enigmas that we keep and produce do not exhibit issues really.. some had the wobbles *a little* but that was it.. our Super Snow Enigma does not show any signs of any type of issue whatsoever
I am kind of new to the whole breeding part of reptiles but using words like "only when", and "a little" are just ways of hiding the fact that it's a genetic defect that is ok when it's just a little or when when they are excited. No matter the amount or situation it takes to bring the defect to show, it's still a defect none the less. This is not a personal attack on anyone who breeds, owns or loves Enigma's it's just my opinion on promoting a nerological defect that sometimes even makes feeding these a issue. In the wild I know most if not all current morphs would not exsist but for sure the Enigma would be the one that died do the lack of ability to even catch food.
 

jamesa2580

New Member
Messages
2
Location
Bay Village, Ohio
Very Interesting!

I, too, am new to Leo's, but not new to reptiles or breeding. I'm a BP (ball python) guy and just recently got into Leo's, so I came in with a better than cursory knowledge of reptile genetics at least from the BP world.

Nice to see there are just as many responsible breeders in the Leo world collaborating and sharing info/ideas as there are in the BP community!

As a responsible breeder, a few things jump out at me as common sense issues like the albino issue. It makes sense to me not to cross strains if they aren't compatible. If you do breed out to a double recessive albino, you'll just likely end up with some type of leucistic animal that can breed either strain of albino. Visually, I doubt you would end up with a stunning animal, or at least as stunning as the individual strain as it exists today. This is purely speculation, of course. Financially, there wouldn't be any real advantage to owning this animal as individual albino's are pretty inexpensive.
As far as the Enigmas - we have in the BP world, Spider Ball Pythons, in which many of the early examples of the morph (and many still today) exhibit head wobble (a neurological disorder) that causes the animal to sway or corkscrew it's head. It seems that selective breeding is actually breeding this trait out of a lot of Spiders being produced today. From what I've read, it would seem that this is also happening in the Leo world.

As far as keeping pur animals, cleaning up, and getting things back in order -You can try if you want, but I don't think it will ever happen OR it will just happen naturally. Just based on percentages alone, every morph pairing will have some percentage to produce normal animals as well as pure albinos, etc.
The attraction to the "morph game" is just that - to produce awesome looking animals that wouldn't likely naturally produce in the wild. Add all the cool polygenic stuff you have in the Leo world that doesn't exist in the BP world, and we'll always have a wide variety of animals.

All that being said, My suggestion would be for those purists out there who want to keep things clean and breed base morphs - do it up! I'm a big supporter of people doing what they are passionate about. It will also provide a nice harmony and balance to the universe knowing that for every breeder trying for the next big thing, there will be another breeder keeping it clean :)

Happy Herping to you all! :main_thumbsup:
 

Kotori

New Member
Messages
77
I'm new to Leopard gecko genetics- I heard somepeople talking about 'het for nothing' hat would mean being PURELY one, like if two Normals were crossed= Normals het nothing, and Murphy patternless+ Murphy patternless= Pattenless het nothing, right?
(It seems so simple I MUST be missing something lol)
 

stager

New Member
Messages
2,112
Location
Jersey
Never breed leo's, but mixing and matching trying to create the holly grail is bad in many animals. Usually any cross that creates problemed results is avoided and offspring destroyed. And not bashing anyone but for every enigma with out problems there is one with problems. Milkshakes blended and blended make a domino effect of people breading animals without really knowing whats in the gene pool.
 

contracteryin

Shakawkawkaw
Messages
229
Location
USA
Oye... I just read through all of this and I've learned some important stuff but at the same time got really confused. Why do Engimas have a neurological issue anyways? Does anyone know exactly why? I'm still new with leopard gecko's per-say
 

paulh

New Member
Messages
128
Location
Ames, Iowa, USA
Why do Engimas have a neurological issue anyways? Does anyone know exactly why?
A very good question. Unfortunately, as far as I know, nobody knows why. I think that eventually someone will figure it out, but the research is likely to require sacrificing some animals for dissection and microscopic examination. And nobody with a big bank account has volunteered to fund it.
 

Dimidiata

New Member
Messages
1,955
Location
palmetto FL
so i am not a breeder by far an im new to the leo thing BUT i have 1 question. What is so wrong with letting your beautiful little leo, good genetics or bad, "sit on the shelf" and be a pet? is it killing the little guy not to be breed to create more chaos? Im all for breeding pure clean lines but i will agree that from what ive read(includes this entire thread and more) the leo lines are pretty messed up right now. Oy this is worse then any fish line ive ever seen(excluding maybe goldies) I do think everybody made some good points but i have learned alot from this thread and for that i say thanks. P.S. i have no idea the genetics for my hypotang even though it would take only a phone call, does it matter if hes only a pet?
 

Desdemona

New Member
Messages
653
Location
Bay Area, CA
Well for any animal to be a popular pet you need people to want to buy it. I don't think crossing different morphs is bad since not EVERYONE is doing it. Those who just want some Trempers can breed some Trempers. Those who want RAPTORs or other mixes can breed those mixes. From what I have seen there are a large number of Leos floating around, its not a species with only a few members. The responsibility is the breeders keeping track of whatever they put into their lizards and telling anyone who buys and might breed exactly what is in that lizard. You have to keep track of more than just one or two generations. The more you know the better.

To me enigmas are more than just a color, they have a personality that other Leos don't have. It seems that they are not as skittish and frightful as non-enigma Leos. If one could produce enigmas who have no effects, even when stressed, but were still outgoing it would be a huge boost as far as your average person wanting them as a pet. They could be the new "dog" because they would act like one (but not need walks, poop bags, etc). My first enigma seems to handle stress better than my non-enigma geckos. I noticed that from day one. Being able to go with the flow is what makes a good human companion. But, if we never try to breed the tilt out of them how will we ever know? It goes back to responsibility. It would probably be good for enigma breeders to keep their animals for longer than 3 months AND to keep track. So that if gecko A produces 18 offspring and more than 50% are spinners than gecko A needs to be "put on the shelf" and those offspring need to be as well. It is up to the breeder to decide if they want to take the risk of having a breeder turn into a pet only. BUT, the enigma strain will never be "cleaned up" (if it's possible) if people are not willing to do this. There are plenty of examples of genetic disorders that have been breed out of a species while keeping desired traits.

ANd.. what really brought me here.... do people have the same dislike of mixing snows as mixing albinos? I know that you can tell a mack snow with a generation since its the only snow to make supers.. but is there a way to really tell if you have a Gem or a TUG? If not then would it not be good to make breeding those together another "no no"? I don't think I've ever seen a "don't mix the snows" comment yet.
 
Messages
66
Location
Foothills
I think people really should get off their soap boxes when it comes to breeding animals that turn out like the enigmas. But I think the same thing about anyone on a soap box (myself included since I've been known to do it once or twice).

The truth is, it's no different than trying to breed teacup chihuahuas or great danes. They have a multitude of problems that have been basically bred into them yet few people seem to mind and perpetuate the breeds. The same is true for just about any animal people have messed with. So most people have no room to talk.

Having researched this breed for two years though, I'm entirely for cleaning up lines as well as maintaining a population of wild type normals. I'm having a horrible time trying to find just plain anything. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with mutts.
 

wisnu.rifky

New Member
Messages
16
Location
jakarta, Indonesia
very bad idea combine these three types of albino strain.
each of them have unique character, color, pattern, and we're not supposed to mix them.
and actually they can't compatible for each other.
 

LepoInc

New Member
Messages
594
Location
United States
I know I would like to get a line of Normal non-hets just so I can produce them and hold back line-bred traits that I find neat and just design normals. I think what could really help the leopard gecko community is if people worked UP to the morph that want, like piecing the puzzle together. For example, I want to produce Sunglows so I have a SHTCTB(f), SHTCT(m), and Tremper Albino(f) that I will breed and mix into each other when I get satisfactory results. I would much rather do that then buy two Sunglows and expect Sunglows when they are bred to each other
 

Matthew David

Gecko Central
Messages
42
Location
Cheltenham
I personally am perfecting the Mack Snow behind closed doors at the moment - Hopefully this will make for less dirty macks that turn yellow and look like normals at adult stage... more to come on that in the coming season ;)

With regards to X binos well ... I have seen a Tremper Bell Mix before and they do exist there are traits of both in particular as RT states the Tremper has a specific head pattern which is seen and the eyes are pure bell .. i dont think we know half of what were buying from a store these days either I wonder how many mixed hets exist already.

There are also big breeders testing this behind closed doors, to quote RT said in a comment recently its okay to cross them there is just no known visual benefit just yet and thats his words.
 
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Rareglowgeckos

New Member
Messages
4
Location
Ontario Canada
Hey guys I'm new to this forum and to breeding I have owned leopard geckos for years now and I am very experienced and I have been researching how to breed them for a year or two now and now that there is reptile expo coming up I'm gonna buy a couple new geckos and now reading this thread I want to help contribute to the community so I wanted to know what are some morphs that need help cleaning up basically I want to know what morphs to buy or should I just breed to normals together?
 

LepoInc

New Member
Messages
594
Location
United States
Well a huge help would be producing normals het for nothing. Get some more of those in the world because it is used for test breeding.

Sent via Tapatalk whilst caring for Eublepharis macularis'
 
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