Muddying the waters with E. afghanicus?

[Wild West Reptile]

I, vaguely, mentioned what I did as it pertains to the assumptions at hand regarding outcrossing within the thread. The geckos I purchased, and need to mail back, were of "pure" subspecies status yet they are already showing genetic abnormalities.

I can appreciate your concerns Tokay. Are you suggesting that all of these type of subspecies are showing or are going to show genetic abnormalities? Or do you think that it could be isolated to possibly clutchmates being subject to incubation issues? I'm interested to hear your thoughts and if the breeder offered any insight.

 

[KelliH]

Oh oh an exciting, stimulating, serious discussion! Excellent. I have nothing to add except that as a reptile breeder that has a passion for Eublepharis, I am so glad to see this type of discussion taking place here.

 

[KelliH]

I can appreciate your concerns Tokay. Are you suggesting that all of these type of subspecies are showing or are going to show genetic abnormalities? Or do you think that it could be isolated to possibly clutchmates being subject to incubation issues? I'm interested to hear your thoughts and if the breeder offered any insight.

I think the main point is that no matter what new morph or what ssp. one is dealing with, if there are genetic "flaws" they are eventually going to be expressed via line breeding aka inbreeding. Perhaps these particular geckos that Tokay is referring to are F1's from WC's that consisted of a colony of animals that had been inbreeding (line breeding) for many years in a specific locale. Perhaps there already was a propensity for tail flaws in that particular line.

**edit** or perhaps those tail flaws are not genetic in nature at all but were caused by some environmental issues (meaning diet, supplements and etc.)

 

[eric]

**edit** or perhaps those tail flaws are not genetic in nature at all but were caused by some environmental issues (meaning diet, supplements and etc.)

Totally agree! Kelli.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

or perhaps those tail flaws are not genetic in nature at all but were caused by some environmental issues (meaning diet, supplements and etc.

... and shipping.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Unfortunately, for what I was wanting to do I didn't want to run the risk with these kinks being genetic (which is what I feel they are as I've seen the same kinking in other leos from other breeders). If I honestly had the time and money to afford to prove otherwise I would, but at $10/hr with a BS in biology and as a slave to a large chain petstore I just can't afford to take that risk with my limited collection.

I do plan on getting the particular subspecies I'm needing to mail back and I FULLY plan on talking with the breeder so that we can avoid the issue and actually get me set up with the subspecies. The breeder is a great person whom I have years of respect for from when myself and they would participate in great genetics conversations here and further back when the kingsnake.com leopard gecko forum was the place to be. Unfortunately I've just not had much time lately (nor has the breeder) to have a good long telephone conversation that I think will occur.

EDIT: I don't think shipping had anything to do with the kinks. In one of the photos on the breeder's site you can actually see part of the kink now that I know where and what to look for. Not knowing that, the geckos look perfectly fine on-line. They could be environmental, but I genuinely feel they aren't knowing this breeder.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Before I try to get back on the topic of the original post, I would certainly not want to take a chance on geckos I purchased that arrived with kinked tails either. But! I shipped a couple of high-end leopard geckos to another breeder several years ago, and both arrived with kinked tails. He called me, sent me photos, and we compared them to the website photos. He knew me well enough that I would NEVER sell an animal that had a known issue, especially a kinked tail, without full disclosure. He shipped me back the geckos, and within a few days the tail kinks all but disappeared. The only thing we could collectively come up with was some kind of environmental influence such as excessive heat or even severe stress. This can leech calcium out of the blood rapidly, and once the gecko settled down, gets hydrated and supplemented, the issue is corrected. This is very common in Crested Geckos, is it not?

Anyway, I would hate to think an experience like this would be grounds for skeptics looking for reasons to dismiss working with the amazing subspecies we have access to. I would also hope that this type of issue would be addressed and remedied between the buyer and seller before making a public example of how it might relate to 'muddying the waters' by crossing two subspecies. It's an unfortunate problem, but I just don't see how it relates to the OP?

OK, there. [takes off mean old gecko lady hat] :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Anyway, I would hate to think an experience like this would be grounds for skeptics looking for reasons to dismiss working with the amazing subspecies we have access to. I would also hope that this type of issue would be addressed and remedied between the buyer and seller before making a public example of how it might relate to 'muddying the waters' by crossing two subspecies. It's an unfortunate problem, but I just don't see how it relates to the OP?

Exactly. "skeptics" will be skeptics though Marcia.