Murphys Patty and the other patternless?

[boutiquegecko]

Murphy's Patternless and the patternless in raptor have been brought up a lot recently. Quite a few people mentioned not even knowing it was a separate thing. I'm not the expert on this, so can someone list a breakdown so everyone can see the difference? Like
Murphy Patternless-recessive gene, can have say a mack het patternless
I wouldn't even know how to describe the other one. Can you have a het for it?
Created by stripe x rev stripe?

 

[Ipsl]

Yes from what Ive been gathedrnig the patternless in APTOR comes from a stripe and a rev stripe making a patternless stripe, as it were. Now the Mrphy's oatternless is a recessive trait, Thouh, as of now, there is no conclusive evidence to prove that stripes are gentic.

 

[Sandra]

There is a very easy way to tell patternless stripes (the patternless in RAPTORs) apart from the Murphy patternless. Murphy patternless have no spots and the color is usually more pale than in patternless stripes. Patternless stripes can have spots in their tails and heads (the 'patternless' thing only refers to the body).

Maybe that will help the people to tell one from the other.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This has been a confusing issue for many of us, especially the newcomers to the gecko community, since the APTOR/RAPTOR was introduced. I find myself explaining it to people more than I would like to.

Basically, the Patterness (now called the Murphy Patternless) morph is a simple recessive genetic morph that is characterized by a solid yellow body with a white/gray/lavender tail:

The APTOR/RAPTOR is a Tremper albino combination morph where the 'patternless' (the "P" in the acronym) was created by crossing a stripe with a reverse-stripe, thereby cancelling out the patterns. Many APTORs and RAPTORs can still have a slight pattern:

 

[Ipsl]

Those are som hot geckos!! Very nice BTW

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Thouh, as of now, there is no conclusive evidence to prove that stripes are gentic.

I`m not sure where you get this idea. I know that I have posted this information for you tho`. There is evidence to prove that every patterning trait is genetic. Stripes are part of a "chain" of traits that all work together to make "new" traits. That is where Reverse Stripes came from, then Patternless Stripes, and even the Raptors. Those are all genetic, so please tell me how stripes are not?

Marlo, the "Murphy Patternless" are the solid, almost always yellow ones. That were once called "luecistic". It is a simple recessive trait, and does combine with Albinos, Mack Snows, etc. You need to have two Patternless, a Patternless and a het, or two hets for Patternless, to hatch them.

The "Patternless Stripe" is the patterning trait responsible for the Aptor morph. It was found that Stripe X Reverse Stripe makes these, and they were proven to be the same thing as a non-Albino, "Aptor 100% het Raptor". It was called patternless, but many of them do have some pattern. They work just like Stripes, or any other patterning trait(non banded). It is recessive, but not in the same way, normal recessive traits are. You can have a het for Patternless Stripe(or Aptor), but they carry the "genes" for the whole combination. So you can hatch Jungles, Stripes, and Reverse Stripes, all from the same gecko.

 

[SteveB]

Everything is genetic. I think the poster meant that it wasn't a simple recessive trait, or that inheritence of that visual appearance is not a genetic certainty.

 

[Ipsl]

Everything is genetic. I think the poster meant that it wasn't a simple recessive trait, or that inheritence of that visual appearance is not a genetic certainty.

Im not sure about your fitst statment as it applies to this topic. Tangs are linebreed, not genetic, just like stripes so far. So to answer the first part...

Yes you could have a Mac Sno het patternless.

and No. Since stripes/ rev stripes have yet to be proven as a genetically recessive trait, you could not have a say Mac Snow het stripe. In fact I would dare to say that a Mac Snow x Stripe combo would eventually, givin enough breeding, give you Snow Stripes.

 

[Ipsl]

I`m not sure where you get this idea. I know that I have posted this information for you tho`. There is evidence to prove that every patterning trait is genetic. Stripes are part of a "chain" of traits that all work together to make "new" traits. That is where Reverse Stripes came from, then Patternless Stripes, and even the Raptors. Those are all genetic, so please tell me how stripes are not?

.

So than would you say that tangs are genetic as well?

 

[SteveB]

genetic does not imply recessive. Tangs are genetic. They are not a simple recessive trait though, no.

 

[Ipsl]

Right on. I misunderstood you so you get..................

INTERNET HIGH FIVE

 

[boutiquegecko]

Come on Dan-I know what a Murphy is
Marcia that is a great ex of the two (even though yours have excellant carrotting). What I was trying to get at is to explain to a newbie the genetics behind the two.
Yes, you can have a get murphy patternless.
Can you have say a mack het patternless (the other one?)
Dan your prs are the same thing as the patternless in raptors/aptors right? So could you have a mack het prs? Am I losing you guys in my though process here? It's been a long day already.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

The tangerine is linebred, but still passed on genetically. Alot of us seem to call only the known recessive, dominant, etc, traits "genetic", and the rest "linebred" even though like Steve said, everything is genetic. Sorry if I confused you, at all.

 

[TokayKeeper]

oh god, not the striped being "genetic" debate again. H-o-l-y crap!

As stated, everything is genetic. The question of the matter is to what degree. Some are Mendelian, or "simple" recessive or dominant traits controlled by 1, one, uno, l'un, ein, un, один (that's russian for one!) gene. Some are co-dominant, and yet others are incomplete dominance. Then you get into traits that are multi-allelic, or resort through multiple genes being expressed or not.

Some examples of multi-allelic traits in humans would be height and weight. AND more often than not multi-allelic traits tend to also be influenced by the environment. Again, using height and weight as an example...if you eat right and well one grows large. In my case I also have to battle my grandfather's genes of being 5'6" and his mother being 4'11". I ate well growing up, and especially so in high school when I was on the cross country team, yet I'm only 5'6". My uncle (my mom's brother) on the other hand is 5'8" or 5'9". My dad was 5'10", and his little brother is 6'3". Some people eat and eat and eat and eat and never gain weight, while others eat and eat and eat and look like the average american of 200 lbs+. EVERYTHING is genetic to some degree.

As for stripes....In my breeding experience, using animals from Ron Tremper, I'd say they were recessive. Not only did I get stripes from doing stripe to stripe breeding, but also from breeding my striped parents to heterozygous offspring I produced from them. The hets were produced from PURE normal leos purchased back in the day when all you could get were normals and hi-yellows. However, I know different about stripes from breeding them to jungles. I roughly got a 50/50 mix of jungle and striped offspring from the crosses, which tells me no it's not just a simple recessive trait or that the jungles I had were het for stripe. But unfortunately I strayed from leo breeding before I could fully carry out the gamut of genetic crosses to figure what was what. I can say this though, stripe and jungle are more "simple recessive" (Note, THEY ARE NOT!) than tangerine, hi-yellow, or hypo (Ray Hine pre-CT animals) are.

All line breeding means is that you've selectively bred for a specific characteristic, and in the case of leos it's a phenotypic (visual) characteristic. Through enough selective breedings, and thus the subsequent generations produced, the trait/characteristic becomes more reproducible and breeds more true. The tangs of today look nothing like the tangs from the days of 96, 97, and 98 when people like GoldenGecko.com (they sold all their stock, site is dead) were THE people to go to for tangs and The Urban Gecko and Albey's "Too Cool" Reptiles weren't around yet. None the less, even line breeding can apply to simple, 1 gene controlled traits - be they recessive or dominant - like patternless or albinos. All it takes is keeping back the prettiest animals and breeding them to each other. Take the ugliest offsrping and sell them cheap, feed em to tokays, ackies, larger knob-tails, whatever, and breed the pretty offspring back to the parents, themselves, etc. LINE BREEDING IS A FANCY WAY OF SAYING INBREEDING. The question is at what level, mom to son, dad to daughter, son to 2nd cousin, mom to great uncle, etc.

 

[Gazz]

LINE BREEDING IS A FANCY WAY OF SAYING INBREEDING. .

Personally i don't view them as bing the same thing.

INBREEDIND..when you breed direct related stock together this happens when trying to fix a morph.

LINE BREEDING..Stock dosn't have to be inbreed to be linebred to keep SHTCT strong you have to breed to another SHTCT.If you breed out then you start to loose it.This i view as line breeding as your breeding for a wanted characteristic and have to breed the same to the same to keep it.Such leo strain may have been inbred at the beginning but you are still going for the same goal and the SHTCT.The leo's we use now are not related in a manner you would reconize as inbred yet we still breed them in a uniformed line.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Come on Dan-I know what a Murphy is
Marcia that is a great ex of the two (even though yours have excellant carrotting). What I was trying to get at is to explain to a newbie the genetics behind the two.
Yes, you can have a get murphy patternless.
Can you have say a mack het patternless (the other one?)
Dan your prs are the same thing as the patternless in raptors/aptors right? So could you have a mack het prs? Am I losing you guys in my though process here? It's been a long day already.

I know... but the newbie that might be reading this can benefit from the two different descriptions, and the more easily distinguishable names. Of course Marcia`s pictures help alot too!


You can have any morph, that is het for Patternless Stripe/Aptor. I allready have a group of Mack Snow Tremper Albinos that are all het for Stripe, or Reverse Stripe, and there are quite a few Macks het Raptor out there. I think I can make a "Patternless Striped Mack Snow Albino", (or Mack A.P.T.or), by breeding the het Stripe to the het Reverse Stripes. Even though we never even bred Macks to any Aptors, Raptors, or PRS. I do believe some Mack Raptors have allready been made, so that answer would be yes.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Gazz, I think Chris is right about that. The correct term for your second entry would be selective breeding. I was just thinking about this the other day, and realized alot of us sometimes say linebreeding when we should say selective breeding instead.

 

[TokayKeeper]

here are the differences between patternless (Murphy) and patternless (the P in R/APTOR from Tremper)

Patternless (murphy) circa REPTILES magazine full page ad scan in 97 or 98...

From Ron tremper's website circa 2002...

 

[Gazz]

I don't really know why people have started to flap about one is patternless and patternless STRIPE i've never been confused you don't need to bring MURPHY into it.A proper patternless striped has head spot/tangerine body(no spots)/striped tail with or with out carrottail.patternless striped looks very much like a STRIPED-(SHTCT) and personally that's what i think they are reading what morphs where involed when i read R.tremper book and by the patternless stripe X SHTCT result that i've seen on the web.So bacically there a hypo'd out stripe or reverse striped can be either as long as there hypo'd out finsh off by the tangerine gene.Dangerous ground but APTOR Tremper albino'STRIPED'super hypo'tangerine carrottail.Or RAPTOR Tremper albino'ECLIPSE'STRIPED'super hypo'tangerine'carrottail.But this is only MY theory NOT a statement as have no proof that they are striped(SHTCT).But i am one for thing out side the box possibly somtime a liitle to fare but i think it's visible.

 

[Ipsl]

I would sat this as a point about why I think you couldn't say "het for stripes". To me thats a defining point of a good community "recessive" definition.

One could not make a blizzard from just selective breeding, one might pop out after enough time as a mutation. (Not likely) However one could make a stripe or a rev stripe from scratch.

Now that doesnt take away from the coolness of the trait. To me that just makes an APTOR so much cooler since its such a genetic bouquet of traits.

The reason this point is so important to me is my program I'm working on. So it may act like a recessive trait at times but, to me, it just doesn't cut it as far a punnent squares are concerned.

And Tokay.......

Schooled us all.