Murphys Patty and the other patternless?

[TokayKeeper]

what do you imply by SHTCT?

Are you implying Striped Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail?

Because, from 2000-2004 (04 was when I last bred leos) SHTCT meant Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail! There was also SHTCTB or Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail Baldy.

You see the confusion now? And no one has still answered me question from another genetics post. WTH is an electric tangerine? Is that someone's line of tangerine?

What ever happened to Urban Gecko Line Tang, Hine Line, Nieves Line, etc. I've seen reference countless times on here to electric tangerine, yet I can't find who produced it. All this is coming from someone that EXTENSIVELY followed leopard geckos and morphs from 1996 until 2004/2005.

 

[dprince]

what do you imply by SHTCT?

Are you implying Striped Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail?

Because, from 2000-2004 (04 was when I last bred leos) SHTCT meant Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail! There was also SHTCTB or Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail Baldy.

You see the confusion now? And no one has still answered me question from another genetics post. WTH is an electric tangerine? Is that someone's line of tangerine?

The electric tangerine is Kelli Hammock (HISS)'s line of tangerine.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I've seen reference countless times on here to electric tangerine, yet I can't find who produced it.

It is from HISS lines.

 

[Gazz]

what do you imply by SHTCT?

Are you implying Striped Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail?

Because, from 2000-2004 (04 was when I last bred leos) SHTCT meant Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail! There was also SHTCTB or Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail Baldy.

I'm NOT implying that SHTCH means Striped hypo tangerine carrottail.It means Super hypo tangerine carrottail.I wrote (STRIPED-SHTCT) meaning Striped super hypo tangerne carrottail.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Gazz, I brought this topic up because there have been countless people confused and thinking the patternless in raptor/aptor is murphys. So trying to have a distinguish between the two.
Then I was thinking could you have a het form of that patternless? Just trying to have it in general terms that some might understand better.
Ex-when breeding a normal het patternless to patternless you get a certain % of patty and some normal het patty etc.
But breeding and we'll use macks-mack het rev stripe patty x rev stripe patty is the % outcome the same?
There have been some posts regarding crossing a murphy patternless x rev stripe patternless or aptor or raptor and thinking they are the same patty. A lot of new people do not know they are different patternless. So for them and anyone else to read in a book/online the definition of patternless-
Murphy's Patternless-recessive mutation, yellowish body, grey tail (I don't have a book in front of me right now so can't type the exact def)
Rev stripe Patternless-?, stripe x reverse stripe,
Do you understand why I started the topic now?

 

[Gazz]

Gazz, I brought this topic up because there have been countless people confused and thinking the patternless in raptor/aptor is murphys. So trying to have a distinguish between the two.
Then I was thinking could you have a het form of that patternless? Just trying to have it in general terms that some might understand better.
Ex-when breeding a normal het patternless to patternless you get a certain % of patty and some normal het patty etc.
But breeding and we'll use macks-mack het rev stripe patty x rev stripe patty is the % outcome the same?
There have been some posts regarding crossing a murphy patternless x rev stripe patternless or aptor or raptor and thinking they are the same patty. A lot of new people do not know they are different patternless. So for them and anyone else to read in a book/online the definition of patternless-
Murphy's Patternless-recessive mutation, yellowish body, grey tail (I don't have a book in front of me right now so can't type the exact def)
Rev stripe Patternless-?, stripe x reverse stripe,
Do you understand why I started the topic now?

Yes i do get where you comming from a newbes head may just go !POP!.I think this is Mr Tremper fult i bet he had the eclipse eye gene.Bet he had RAPTOR name thought up be for the APTOR's but APTOR with no (P) you can't make RAPTOR's.I think the (P)-patternless was just a gap filler so he could make the cool name of RAPTOR.I'm just jossing but you never know do you.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Ipsl, I know you mean well, but Stripes can not be made from scratch. Jungle was the first "mutation" and from them came the stripes. Banded geckos, that carry no patterning genes will probably never make Jungles or Stripes all on their own... Unless it happened randomly in two different collections. From Stripes came Reverse Stripes, as each new trait works with the others to create a new form. That is how we ended up with the PRS, and were able to prove that those were the same as non-albino "Aptors het for Raptor".

You can definitely can have a het for Stripe, but it is not a simple recessive trait. You will get the same results from hets, that point to it being recessive. True it is not a simple recessive, but a different type, therfore a punnet square can predict the results, just like if it were any other recessive trait. It is called a co-operating recessive trait.

The only reason why in the R/Aptor project the result can vary so much is because those carry all of the patterning traits. It took the combination to make them, so now all of those traits are included.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Since the Murphy Patternless is a simple recessive genetic mutation, any combination of it othere than itself will result in heterozygous Patternless offspring.

Since the R/APTOR 'patternless' is a combination of a Tremper albino stripe x reverse stripe, as well as being an albino, the only predictable heterozygous trait it would pass on would be the albino gene. The stripe x reverse stripe ('patternless') aspect would not be predicatable.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

The stripe x reverse stripe ('patternless') aspect would not be predicatable.

Right, but I think only when speaking of the Raptor combination as a whole, because they are a "mixed bag" of genetics. It is more like working with a multi-het IMO. They are het for everything so yes the result will be allover the place. Same thing as if you bred het Albino Banana Blizzards together(het Patterlness Albino and Blizzard), the results would be allover. That would not be very predictable either IMO.

Otherwise the trait seems to works like a stripe, and you can certainly have a "het for Stripe". It is very easy to see it in stripes, because they do not have the same "genetic package", that we now have after the combinations were made. Now you get such a wide variety, because of the fact, all of the patterning traits are involved. That is just what I have come to believe from working with them, outcrossing them to Red Stripes, and also breeding the original "Patternless Stripes" to an Aptor. I could be wrong! Because I am not a scientist, just a gecko-geek.

You will get around the same percentage of Patternless Stripe in your results from hets, only the other geckos will also be various patterns, because they display one pattern, but carry the other patterning genes as well. One thing that certainly throws the results, is if the banded trait was bred into your hets. They seem to be slightly more dominant, than all of the other patterns.

Punnet square results do not mean a whole lot(to me), it only gives the probability of hatching whatever morph. You may never actually see the predicted results anyway, unless you hatched hundreds of geckos from the same pairing. It is still kind of like rolling dice, you may hit your lucky number, but you also may not.

That is why I have never wasted my time with any of that(punnet square), and just hatch what I hatch.

The reason this point is so important to me is my program I'm working on. So it may act like a recessive trait at times but, to me, it just doesn't cut it as far a punnent squares are concerned.

I know, but it is a recessive trait, it just is not a simple recessive trait. I see the point, but if you understand there are "incomplete" dominant traits, why is it so hard to believe there is a co-operating recessive gene? They should, by definition give the same results as a simple recessive. The only difference is that breeding patterns together, can produce a "new" type of pattern.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Right, but I think only when speaking of the Raptor combination as a whole, because they are a "mixed bag" of genetics.

Exactly! A RAPTOR is 1.) an albino, 2.) a reverse-stripe x stripe, and 3.) a red-eyed (eclipse). Since there are multiple genetic traits expressed in a single gecko morph, the predicitability of any single simple-recessive trait being passed on to offspring is harder to predict.

With a Murphy Patternless, the morph itself is a single, simple recessive trait.

 

[TokayKeeper]

I know, but it is a recessive trait, it just is not a simple recessive trait. I see the point, but if you understand there are "incomplete" dominant traits, why is it so hard to believe there is a co-operating recessive gene? They should, by definition give the same results as a simple recessive. The only difference is that breeding patterns together, can produce a "new" type of pattern.

Given my experience with the trait (both jungle and striped) I'd personally like to further my crosses I was working on more. It's definitely not a case of simple Medelian recessive (single gene mutation). I'm leaning more towards incomplete dominance or codominance. I'm honestly quite puzzled by it. And for all I know it could be neither.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'm leaning more towards incomplete dominance or codominance.

Ditto! (But, there's been a few 'heated' threads on this subject already, and I don't want to start another one, lol!)

 

[TokayKeeper]

Ditto! (But, there's been a few 'heated' threads on this subject already, and I don't want to start another one, lol!)

What, you don't miss the striped/jungle genetics threads from the good ole' kingsnake or faunaclassified days?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Marcia, Oh ok sorry, misunderstood you a bit there, I guess.

Chris, I believe the patterns, to be cooperating recessive. I don`t think it could be a type of dominance, because we are able to make hets for any of the patterns, and also for "Raptor". As you probably know, Reverse Stripes came out of Striped lines, but I think that means they are the "super" form. "Patternless Stripe" was the next step... but they came from Reverse Stripe X Red Stripe. Red Stripes seem to produce a lesser amount of "Patternless" types all on their own, but we do not know yet if those can make an "Eclipse" like the Patternless Stripes did.

The first "Patternless Stripes"(both Alberto`s and mine), though unrelated to any Aptor or Raptor actually proved out to be "het Eclipse", and the "pattern" that we saw on those, was proven to be the same as the Aptor`s pattern. When I bred the "two" lines together, I only hatched "Aptors" and Reverse Stripes, just like I`de bred two Aptors together.

The history of the patterns evolving coincides with the theory, as the genes would work together to create a new appearance w/ a co-recessive gene.

Jungle --> Stripe --> Reverse Stripe --> Patternless Stripe --> Eclipse

Each new trait would then be the homozygous form of the one before it. I just had no idea that there could be this many types. All connected? Sounds weird.... but they do seem to be all related to one another. You can breed any pattern to another pattern, and hatch out patterned geckos, not banded double hets. So no they are not each their own simple recessive trait. I found that part out when I bred Aptors to Red Stripes.

This could explain why the first Aptors, and het Aptors(that were sold as "non-het Raptor"), all proved to be hets.

 

[TokayKeeper]

The history of the patterns evolving coincides with the theory, as the genes would work together to create a new appearance w/ a co-recessive gene.

Jungle --> Stripe --> Reverse Stripe --> Patternless Stripe --> Eclipse

Each new trait would then be the homozygous form of the one before it. I just had no idea that there could be this many types. All connected? Sounds weird.... but they do seem to be all related to one another. You can breed any pattern to another pattern, and hatch out patterned geckos, not banded double hets. So no they are not each their own simple recessive trait. I found that part out when I bred Aptors to Red Stripes.

This could explain why the first Aptors, and het Aptors(that were sold as "non-het Raptor"), all proved to be hets.

Sounds somewhat similar to that of blood typing in humans. It's co-dominance, but oftenly confused as being incomplete dominance.

 

[Ipsl]

Well this is a trip het x trip het pair. I didnt put all the different names and % but I could so yes its predictable to an extent whne dealing with those know genetic traits.

Like I had said Im past trip hets Im looking for concrete proff to DEFINE how it would act this is my only passion in this all. The earnest search for the truth.

And Your telling me that I couldnt make a striped gecko from linebreeding?Im pretty sure I might not have been clear at first.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Super Snows are incomplete-dom. and...

If any of the traits were a type of dominance, wouldnt there be a difference in the hets? What I mean is: Eclipse X Banded, I think only makes normal looking het for Eclipse. There would be something different about them, like what happens with the Mack Snows.

While if it were incomplete or cooperating recessive, I`de expect the normal looking hets... and Stripes, Eclipse, etc. have all proven out with recessive results in the past. Marcia, was even one of the people who told us all that Stripes proved out to "act" recessive for her. Then well, I have made plenty of hets that proved out from everything, from het Stripe, to het Aptor, to het Raptor

Now you two are starting to confuse me here! LOL

 

[TokayKeeper]

they proved to be "recessive" for me too when I out-crossed to normals and bred the hets back. But 2 + 2 isn't equaling 4 here for some reason.

 

[okapi]

There can be het stripes and het patternless stripe, otherwise we would not have seen the first SS raptor and SS eclipse.

Just my $0.02 before goin to bed.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I honestly feel that Tremper albino stripes/reverse stripes 'act' differently than non-albino stripes/reverse stripes. I can't explain it fully, but every time I have crossed non-albino stripes with non-albino reverse-stripes, all I get is a big mess.... no 'patternless' offspring. I haven't wroked with the reverse stripes long enough to be able to make an informed opinion. (I have been too busy trying to create a 'bold' reverse stripe!)

I no longer think that stripes are recessive in the sense that most of us think of recessive genes. I have crossed 'het' stripe to 'het' stripe, and not produced ANY stripe offspring.