My backyard is full of surprises

[M_surinamensis]

I do not know how long it would take to kill a toddler. What I read, their venom is slow and you may not even see symptoms for up to 18 hours, but considering how small a toddler is, i'm sure it'd be sped up.

Eh, mixed chances of that. Being primarily neurotoxic, the systemic effects are a result of venom traveling through the bloodstream to susceptible tissues and organ systems. The person is smaller, but their circulatory system is scaled down to match. Of much more significance than the mass of an envenomation victim is the exact placement of the bite, the type of tissue the venom is deposited into.

Definitely not a fifteen minute human fatality potential though; again barring an extreme allergic reaction.

when you do the song in your head "red on black is a friend of jack and red on yellow, well that'll kill a fellow"

Yeah, don't use that. It is not entirely accurate.

deadly snake

One human death in the last forty five years. While the capabilities of a venomous species should not be dismissed, they should also not be inflated.

Like I said, I'm sorry this offended people

No. No! Why would anyone on a reptile forum be displeased by a photo of a reptile you killed? It's not like there's some guy hanging around using the nomenclature for a coral snake as his login handle, real unforgiving bastard with a mean streak and a long memory. I'm sure it's fine.

I just wanted to raise awareness that they're out there

One less is out there now.

 

[Ambyrlynne]

Yeah, don't use that. It is not entirely accurate.

Please please please tell me how the song is NOT accurate? We have 2 kinds of snakes here in florida that are almost identical, a coral snake and a milk snake and anyone who lives here is taught that "red on black = friend of jack, red on yellow will kill a fellow" It's pretty straight forward.

I dont understand? Most people, exspecialy on here know about snakes outside and know about the fact that when you let kids out you need to watch for dangerous animals, There was no point in posting the pic of the decapitated snake. You could have simply posted a reminder that there are dangerous snakes out back. Besides, you said you wanted to warn people out there herping that there are venomous snakes. Youd think herpers would be aware of that . Your comment on how deadly their venom was, was generalized, not directed at anyone in particular, and wrong overall. Again as i said, You live in the country, snakes happen, bites happen, its not our territory, its theirs. The best you can do is make the yard unappealing to them and maybe not let young kids run around out back, or put up a smaller gate in a grass area, keep it trimmed low, that way its just a area with short grass, nothing a snake like that would hide out in.

The snakes dead, its unfortunate, it really didn't have to die. But it did and that's that. The wrong was done with good intention. Im glad everyones ok and nobody got bit or injured.

Maybe some more experienced "herpers" know the venomous snakes, but not all would. You have people come on here from ALL sorts of experience and backgrounds and those who come on here for help aren't always experts otherwise they wouldn't need it. Maybe it was a case of (once again) on this forum, I'm totally wrong and all of you seemingly much more knowledgeable people are correct, I'm okay with that. I'm not quite sure I waste my time on here even trying to learn because everyone just bashes you for it anyway. Anyone who has the power is more than welcome to delete my account, I will find a friendlier place. Although I will say thank you to those who have accepted my want for knowledge and guided me without doing so rudely.

 

[Dimidiata]

No ones being rude to you. You made a bad choice posting a dead snake on a herp forum. Im pretty sure EVERYONE is aware that there are poisonous snakes in the world. The songs not accurate because there are some snakes that break those rules. There is also more then milk and corals, become more acquainted with our local snakes, like the scarlet and a variety of kings. I think M. Summed up it all in his last post. You could always simply apologize and ask to have the thread removed???

 

[lillith]

Here's one example of the maxim not being accurate:

http://reptile-database.reptarium.cz/species?genus=Micrurus&species=surinamensis

 

[Dimidiata]

I wanted to see if anyone else had that figured out XD. Very cool snakes Btw. Though, definitely not a friend of jack(couldn't find much on their toxicity to humans as well though, still venom is venom and rarely is it fun.)

 

[M_surinamensis]

Please please please tell me how the song is NOT accurate? We have 2 kinds of snakes here in florida that are almost identical, a coral snake and a milk snake and anyone who lives here is taught that "red on black = friend of jack, red on yellow will kill a fellow" It's pretty straight forward.

I'm not even sure which part to explain first.

There are more than two red, black and yellow striped snakes and the rhyme is inaccurate in both directions. There are harmless snakes that the rhyme would label as dangerous, and venomous snakes that the rhyme labels as harmless. Admittedly, there are fewer of these species in the United States than there are starting around central Mexico and all throughout Central and South America (some of which are rear-fanged colubrids that are painful but not considered capable of clinically significant effects)- but even here, it's not entirely accurate.

There are aberrant patterned and pigmented coral snakes. Much the same way there are color mutations in, for example, leopard geckos. Eastern corals are actually an interesting example because there have been multiple field finds of melanistic individuals, as well as a few that exhibited some blotching (rather than banding) and altered densities of erythrophores and xanthophores.

The same goes for non-venomous species that are often banded, of which Florida has more than just milk snakes (scarlets, kings, muds). Plus there are things like thayeri, where red bands can be lined up next to black bands, yellow bands or both and neonate florida/brooks intergrades that can be yellow and red with dense black dots forming saddles. A couple of which are considered protected, incidentally; so killing them out of hand after mumbling an inaccurate rhyme is illegal, even if you have somehow managed to convince yourself it is not an ethical problem.

If you open it up a bit and look at the U.S. rather than just Florida, there are also a pretty large number of tri-color shovelnose snakes, which typically and blatantly violate the rhyme.

The best advice, in fact I'd go so far as to say the only advice anyone should be given, is to leave a snake alone if the person isn't 100% positive of their ability to identify it.

I love mimicry. It's something that absolutely fascinates me. There are morphological differences that make it pretty easy to identify the differences between the species present in Florida. They don't look all that similar in shape, size and scalation; which are far more reliable indicators than color or pattern. Take a minute to look at the head and eyes of a milk snake when compared to a coral snake and you'll never need to rely on an inaccurate rhyme ever again.

... although it should be noted that there are people who I respect a great deal as herpetologists who feel it has a place, because it is mostly accurate, most the time, in most the places where people are using it. Something I will grudgingly acknowledge, under protest. I feel it's too easy to take ten minutes learning to recognize native species, removing the justification for taking the same ten minutes to memorize something that is less accurate. "Kill a fellow" also fosters a negative attitude towards corals, a species that really doesn't deserve the reputation it has been given.

I'm not quite sure I waste my time on here even trying to learn because everyone just bashes you for it anyway. Anyone who has the power is more than welcome to delete my account, I will find a friendlier place. Although I will say thank you to those who have accepted my want for knowledge and guided me without doing so rudely.

First of all, there's some decent information in this thread, learning is possible. You can choose to use what has been presented to know more, or you can ignore it, but that is on you, not on anybody else. That opportunity is yours to do with what you see fit.

Secondly, what want for knowledge? You asked a couple questions after the discussion took off but you started the thread by posting a photo of a dead snake and then went on to say inaccurate things about the species to justify its death. On a reptile forum, even if it is a bit gecko-centric. What did you expect as a response? "Hooray for dead coral snakes! Good job smushing that legless bastard!" It wasn't going to happen. Maia supported your decision because it was a matter of child safety, I allowed for the existence of scenarios where I'd agree (but questioned if this was one of them). What more would you like?

 

[The Gecko Person]

The smartest thing to do is leave a snake alone. Most bites come from people trying to kill venomous snakes, thinking that they are helping something. They are obviously supposed to be there, they evolved to fill the niche in their ecosystem.

I don't know how some kid being near a coral snake would be a reason to kill it, but that species is definitely not known for biting. I have heard of (and seen) people free-handling them, without getting bitten. They are most likely to bite if restrained.

That means that if there was some kid looking at the snake from four feet away, the snake would probably stay still, or try to crawl away. If the kid went over to the snake, picked it up, and squeezed it, they would be at risk of getting bitten.
There is no risk of getting bitten if people watch their kids when they are outside, but people already posted other options of how to escape from the 'deadly snake'.

 

[BS47]

What a shame!