natural enclosure (sand)

[robin]

i have three female adult leopard geckos i want to keep in a naturalistic enclosure.i was thinking about placing them on play sand with pieces of limestone in the enclosure. so basically rocky and sandy. what do you guys think?

 

[roy5695]

im fairly new here but i always thought sand was a bad idea...

although on the other hand if you feed them on something else, ie, mealies in a feeding dish or whatever there wouldn't be a chance of impaction from the sand...

just a thought if you were to put them on sand

 

[TokayKeeper]

15 years never had an issue doing it other than a hemipene sheath getting infected last year; even collected my own flat limestone way back when I first started keeping leos. A good spray, contact time waiting, and scrubbing with roccal-d, any gluconate-type, or glutaraldehyde-based disinfectant should do the trick on the rocks. To seal the deal, just bake 'em at 350° for 10-15 minutes. The sand all you really need to do is rinse the dust off, which is a PITA and time consuming. He**, I even went and collected my own 5 gallon bucket of arroyo sand, cleaned it with 30% bleach soln and then baked it.

Attached is an old, crappy pic from 1999 of a 30 gallon I had setup in above manner. You can see the shine of a 75 watt bulb heating the right side of the tank. The gecko that lived in that tank started out in it at about 6 months of age and probably around 30 grams (I didn't have a scale then). I still have said gecko... http://geckoforums.net/dto_showcase.php?&do=preview&g=2222 and he's still on sand today, though now in a 10 gallon.

I say go for it. Too many on here think these geckos are stupid, are overly cautious, and lazy with feeding mealies thus not giving their geckos any form of enrichment by allowing them to hunt their prey.

I even have my TX banded geckos set up in this manner. They're much smaller than leos and I've not had impaction issues. Healthy geckos don't go about front end loading sand.

Now that I took the bait of the trolling, I'll let the flaming begin. But I'm not backing down.

DISCLAIMER: I have not and never will raise hatchlings on sand. All geckos I've kept on sand are sub-adult to adult in weight or age, whichever comes first.

EDIT: Added pics from 2000 sent to me by my best friend after he want field herping about a 10 minute hike from his house with his new film camera. The poorly detailed pics show habitat for TX banded geckos around the Alamogordo, NM area. Habitat which is somewhat similar to that of Afghanistan, just a little more vegetated.

Pic #2 is rocks as approached, in situ if you will.
Pic #3 is geckos as found
Pic #4 is a wider angle shot
Pic #5 is a juvie brevis found under another rock nearby.

 

[subjectivereality]

From my understanding calci-sand is okay for adults (not good, but the chances of it causing problems is very small) however play-sand isn't really the way to go.

Reason why:

- Calci-sand is made of calcium carbonate which after a while is digested and absorbed. It will only lead to impaction if ingested in large quantities ( which if you have a well fed and well supplemented gecko should not happen).

- Play-Sand on the other hand is made of non-soluble non-digestible minerals. This means that the sand particles will not be digested and absorbed period. And while some of the sand particles may leave the system undigested, not harming the animal, it still leads to a high risk of impaction.


Remember, leopard geckos in the wild generally live in rocky, grassy areas, not ones where there is much sand. If you want to make your pet more comfortable, you should take that into account.

 

[fuzzylogix]

From my understanding calci-sand is okay for adults (not good, but the chances of it causing problems is very small) however play-sand isn't really the way to go.

Reason why:

- Calci-sand is made of calcium carbonate which after a while is digested and absorbed. It will only lead to impaction if ingested in large quantities ( which if you have a well fed and well supplemented gecko should not happen).

- Play-Sand on the other hand is made of non-soluble non-digestible minerals. This means that the sand particles will not be digested and absorbed period. And while some of the sand particles may leave the system undigested, not harming the animal, it still leads to a high risk of impaction.


Remember, leopard geckos in the wild generally live in rocky, grassy areas, not ones where there is much sand. If you want to make your pet more comfortable, you should take that into account.

sorry, i couldn't disagree with you more on this. calci-sand can actually encourage a gecko to ingest it much the way they would from a calcium dish. i would never use calci-sand as substrate for ANY of my reptiles. I lost a beardie a few years ago from impaction due to calci-sand, and nobody will ever change my mind on this. as far as play sand, i only use washed play sand for my beardies, never for geckos. i have a friend though that used a non toxic glue, mixed with washed play sand, and formed caves and inclines that hardened solid. keeps the substrate look to it, but without the loose particles. i will only keep my leos on paper towels, but again it's a matter of opinion. and that's mine, lol.

 

[subjectivereality]

sorry, i couldn't disagree with you more on this. calci-sand can actually encourage a gecko to ingest it much the way they would from a calcium dish. i would never use calci-sand as substrate for ANY of my reptiles. I lost a beardie a few years ago from impaction due to calci-sand, and nobody will ever change my mind on this. as far as play sand, i only use washed play sand for my beardies, never for geckos. i have a friend though that used a non toxic glue, mixed with washed play sand, and formed caves and inclines that hardened solid. keeps the substrate look to it, but without the loose particles. i will only keep my leos on paper towels, but again it's a matter of opinion. and that's mine, lol.

From my understanding calci-sand only becomes an issue when the gecko isn't getting enough calcium from food and supplement. From what I've read, when that happens, leopard geckos try to fix their deficiencies by eating the sand.

Then again the use of sand and the type of sand used is a bit of a hot-button issue among leopard gecko owners (and from my understanding, after lurking, you are much more of an expert on this than I am).

I would also like to mention that although I like to keep my leo on either repti-carpet or paper towel, the play-sand/glue idea seems fairly clever.

 

[prettyinpink]

I also saw a study done on calci sand. When mixed with water it hardens which causes impaction as you can imgaine what it's doing in it's stomach.
Second people who think sand is natural...it's not natural considering leos don't have play sand where they live For the million-th time

:main_evilgrin: Silly Robin :iloveyou:

 

[fuzzylogix]

i'm no expert by any means, just have personal experience with calcium sand. i also have a problem with big chain pet stores putting it on their care sheets as a recommended substrate. by purchasing and using the stuff, it only allows those stores to keep stocking it. it's just one of my pet peeves, lol. and i think as far as substrates, its honestly a personal preference. you are correct thought that leos come from arid, rocky scrublands instead of what we consider a desert. it may just be how i am, but i would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to husbandry of any animal. as far as the glue/sand mixture, im still waiting to see how the heat affects it. so far he hasn't had any issues with the glue melting or anything.

 

[acpart]

I'm thinking of going the bioactive substrate route in a few of my tanks that open from the top as opposed to the front. Have to wait till it warms up to go collecting out in the woods, though.

Aliza

 

[robin]

I'm thinking of going the bioactive substrate route in a few of my tanks that open from the top as opposed to the front. Have to wait till it warms up to go collecting out in the woods, though.

Aliza

do you think the bioactive substrate be a bit too humid for leos? for some reason i imagine it being a bit moist.

 

[TokayKeeper]

I use bioactive in my higher humidity tanks (cresties, tokays, smurf geckos [Lygo. williamsi], AZ/mountain tree frogs). It could be done with leos, but more possibly applicable to underneath flat rocks where you'd want your moisture/relative humidity higher anyhow. From a rodent burrow hide, the mouth of the burrow will be roughly similar in surface environment conditions, but the farther in you go within the burrow up can get to almost 100% relative humidity. A fair amount of desert herp species will actually use abandoned rodent burrows due to this to aid in shedding or riding out dry periods.

My concern with bioactive would be it drying out and killing its "bioactive" abilities, at which point if kept moist to remain active then you possibly face dermal fungal infections on the leos. You could do a sand-soil mix, possibly with a finely chopped orchid mix (kind without the large bark chunks) or mix sand with some bed-a-beast (coconut choir) and jungle mix. The idea would be to acheive a loamy sand soil mix that isn't too moist like bioactive. The only downside I see though, is that when I do similar mixes, the biotic components tend to separate out from the sand mix as it dries out, so you almost wind up with a bi-layer of biotic vs sand. :main_thumbsdown:

 

[tlbowling]

I say go for it Robin I have used play sand and slate in one of my set ups for a year now w/o any problems at all, Im very careful when I feed though...supers or crickets are placed in a dish one at a time with tongs.

We all know there are risks, but it's been done before.

 

[tlbowling]

Oh and PS...This is copied at pasted right off Steve Sykes Web page, and he'd been breeding them since 1996

SUBSTRATE
Sand is the best substrate for subadult (at least 5 or 6 inches in total length) and adult leopard geckos. I recommend Play Sand (purchased from hardware stores such as Home Depot) because it has been screened and washed. Do not use industrial sand or sand blasting because it contains a lot of dust that can be harmful to your geckos.

Be sure to check the grain size of the play sand before you buy it. Only use extremely fine sand (grain size 0.5 mm or less).