New Reasurch in to euthanasia

[sausage]

Myself and probably many other people have been waiting for this:

New research has just been carried out, conformed and released by reptile vets and specialists, stating that euthanizing your reptiles by freezing is extremely painful and an unacceptably cruel way to end your reptiles life.
Extensive research has revealed that reptiles put in the freezer enter a torpid state in which it remains mentally alert and able to experience pain and distress while being physically unable to move. The animal remains ALIVE as its blood and tissues begin to freeze and crystallise.

*This statement is from next months practical reptile

 

[SDCowboy]

I'm pretty new to leos and had no clue people were putting their old leos down by putting them in the freezer. Yikes.

 

[sausage]

indeed if you find some of the old threads on how to kill your leo ect most people always come to the conclusion that freezing is the best PAINLESS WAY! i have had many argumens over this. i think its disgusting!!
the article also states that the best way would be to visit your vet.
i also disagree with many other methods such as bashing on the head its horrible!

 

[im faster]

So is there a better way to do it?

 

[sausage]

i home euthanasia method is not stated but says as i stated you should see your vet for a painless injection. which i agree should always be the method. if you have taken on these animals its your responsibility to care for them properly if needed.
it shouldnt matter is your reptile cost you £5 or £500

 

[Thorgecko707]

A lot of people behead them. I've never had to personally kill one of mine but I suppose cutting off it's head would satisfy IMO. I don't think I could ever kill my "children".

 

[ElapidSVT]

i would wager that mealworms, crickets and superworms feel just as much pain, if not much more while they are being chewed into a pulp.
i am responsible for the painful, agonizing deaths of thousands of insects every week, euthanizing a couple geckos a year is relatively meaningless in comparison but it still makes me sad.

i'm certain that the end results of freezing an adult animal would take much longer than a freshly emerged hatchling. 99% of culls in the leopard gecko world are freshly hatched.

 

[Wowoklol]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia

This is NOT new information. This should be common sense.. Have you ever been cold? Like Really cold? It doesn't feel nice. Now imagine getting colder. This thread makes me sad.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Those conclusions are nothing that seamus hasn't been saying each and every time one of those euth threads are posted... not shocking to me... but nice to finally see something that might compell the freezing enthusiasts to change their viewpoint. that wiki entry shouldn't make you sad... it's a fact of life as a person in an animal hobby... if you notice tho freezing isn't on that entrie's list of acceptable euth methods...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This information is NOT new! These reports were published by Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994 and was posted on Melissa Kaplan's website, Anapsid. This information tells us that only unconscious animals should be put in the freezer. If you do a search here on this website, you will see where I have stated this many times over the years.

 

[Coby78]

I've always really knew that freezing was painful, it kind of just seemed it since there's no way that pain could not be involved if you were killing an animal based on uncomfortable temperatures or conditions.

That being said, I only think going to the vet for euthanasia is the best for people with just a few or less geckos, because for breeders that get faulted hatchlings, I don't feel like they should have to pay for each one if they are fine with smashing the heads.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Ewwwww, Kaplan!

EWWWW!

The idea isn't really new, but the study might take a different approach. Might be worth taking a look at or it might just be regurgitated information provided through repetition of old conclusions.

Euthanasia methods are... complicated. You'd be hard pressed to find a genuinely painless way of ending the life of a vertebrate; the injections given by vets to reptiles are far from painless and easy deaths, decapitation or destruction of the brain, freezing, asphyxiation, spinal dislocation, use as a prey item for another animal... they all have their pros and cons. The decision for which method is most appropriate should really be made on a case by case basis, with no method being a predetermined favorite.

That decision should always consider what pain is, how they feel it and what it means to the animal experiencing it. Reptile brain function is fundamentally different from that of a mammal like a person or dog. The way they process information, including pain, is not always identical. It changes the boundaries of how a "mercy killing" is defined and carried out in some fairly profound ways.

Ultimately, these necessary but distasteful acts will all accomplish the same goal when performed by reasonable people who have weighed each of them on their merits. A little pain now to prevent a lot of pain later. Freezing a reptile as a method of euthanasia is not cruel, regardless of what a magazine article* might say to the contrary. It is not always the best method, but it's also not always the worst. Gotta take it case by case.

*from the U.K. which is... individual British herpetologists can be quite good but their herpetocultural scene is not exactly a cutting edge co-mingling of science and hobby. Neither is the U.S.'s for that matter, but we're not quite as far back as the brits often are. We're talking those late eighties TFH books by John Coborn tendencies here. Their pet store magazine rack equivalent to Reptiles (which is nothing to brag about) is not going to be something that should be given a lot of weight for innovation.

 

[drblack2013]

i would wager that mealworms, crickets and superworms feel just as much pain, if not much more while they are being chewed into a pulp.
i am responsible for the painful, agonizing deaths of thousands of insects every week, euthanizing a couple geckos a year is relatively meaningless in comparison but it still makes me sad.

i'm certain that the end results of freezing an adult animal would take much longer than a freshly emerged hatchling. 99% of culls in the leopard gecko world are freshly hatched.

I would wager that insects do not have the higher brain function or the pain receptors for that. They probably feel pressure more than pain. Case in point, pulling the back legs off of crickets doesn't really bother them, but restraining them does.

 

[houseb]

I would wager that insects do not have the higher brain function or the pain receptors for that. They probably feel pressure more than pain. Case in point, pulling the back legs off of crickets doesn't really bother them, but restraining them does.

I think you're right on this, in fact, I'm pretty sure that most insects have a decentralized nervous system.

 

[Theinfidel]

There was a thread like 2 weeks ago on the most painless way to put down geckos and most people said it was smashing the skull but idk if i have the balls to do that lol.

 

[sausage]

*from the U.K. which is... individual British herpetologists can be quite good but their herpetocultural scene is not exactly a cutting edge co-mingling of science and hobby. Neither is the U.S.'s for that matter, but we're not quite as far back as the brits often are. We're talking those late eighties TFH books by John Coborn tendencies here. Their pet store magazine rack equivalent to Reptiles (which is nothing to brag about) is not going to be something that should be given a lot of weight for innovation.

No we might not be as big in reptiles as the U.S or any other place at the moment but its getting there here. the UK dose however has the best and biggest animal welfare service. a lot of reasurch is done here on these sorts of thing because we feel very strongly about them.
I totaly understand that breeders cant take every baby to the vets but its quite obvious that freezing is not the right option. further reasurch dose however need to be done for a more humane and cost effective way to deal with reptiles that need to be euthanized within a breeding facility enviroment.
you wouldnt put mammals such as cats, dogs, birds or even humans in the freezer to euthanize them (unless your sick in the head) so why is it okay to do it to a reptile!?

 

[im faster]

If your a good shot.. you could take the out back like old bessie..

 

[Wowoklol]

There was a thread like 2 weeks ago on the most painless way to put down geckos and most people said it was smashing the skull but idk if i have the balls to do that lol.

I agree. A swift, crushing blow to the skull with some blunt object. Even if it doesn't kill it, it will be unconscious and not feeling pain. Not saying I'm ready to smash a geckos skull, but I'm rather sure I wouldn't throw one straight into the freezer.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

We have a CO2 chamber.

 

[M_surinamensis]

its quite obvious that freezing is not the right option.

Saying "it's quite obvious" doesn't actually make something obvious. Or correct.

you wouldnt put mammals such as cats, dogs, birds or even humans in the freezer to euthanize them (unless your sick in the head) so why is it okay to do it to a reptile!?

Because they aren't mammals. Neither are birds incidentally, though the fact that you put "birds" on a list of mammals and tried to bring human beings into a discussion about euthanasia makes me suspect my comments on the subject are unlikely to be understood.

If you put a mammal in suboptimal temperatures their body will actively alter patterns of circulation in order to keep the brain alive as long as possible. With a very VERY small number of extremely rare exceptions, reptiles and amphibians do not have that kind of refined cold weather adaptation and they will lose heat and experience tissue death based on the shape and density of each body part. The brain, which, when dead can be said to indicate total death, is small and is located just underneath the skin and bone of the skull and generally just above the hollow of the mouth. It's one of the first pieces of the animal to die. A mammal will be alive and conscious as each piece freezes, the brain will be the last to go. A reptile will not be.

Furthermore, comprehension of pain is of great importance. Reptiles do feel certain types of pain, but give no indication that they recognize other types or sources. At its most basic, pain can be defined as sensory input which tells the brain that the body is being damaged. What an organism does with that information, how and if it is processed is of enormous importance when looking at the subject of causing the minimum amount of it when putting an animal down. If you take something sharp and jab a reptile with it, they respond. They have a response; they'll run or they'll try to bite their attacker, they'll display some weird and wonderful little bit of evolutionary predator evasion, they'll jump or they'll twitch or flinch... they show signs of distress. They felt pain, their brain processed that pain and they did something about it. If you subject a reptile to extreme cold, they don't show distress. They'll do whatever they would usually do when they find themselves in a box, then they stop. Cells are freezing and rupturing, ice crystals are forming and all that adjective laden damage is happening, but they show no signs of distress. Which either means that their nervous system does not transmit this kind of information, which means that no pain is happening... or their brain has no response to it, which means the pain is not comprehended and is consequentially meaningless.

Most importantly... and this is the point you don't seem to be getting... all forms of euthanasia will arguably cause some degree of pain and it's "okay to do it anyway" because we, the owners, are taking the responsibility and making a choice to subject our pet to a little pain now in order to prevent a lot of pain later. We balance the efficacy against the pain, the duration of pain against the intensity, the suitability of each method against the specifics of the animal in question and we make the best decision we can with what we have.

Frankly, and this is not the first time you have participated (or instigated in this case) discussions on this subject, I find your viewpoint to be offensive. You are wantonly ignorant of the subject you're discussing, but you're handing down these moral condemnations despite your near total lack of comprehension of the subject matter. Labeling other keepers who have had to make difficult decisions to end the lives of their pets as wrong or evil when what they have done, are doing and will do in the future is swallow their dislike of the act and do what is best for their animal. You don't understand reptile biology, for all that you're an "Animal Science Student" (you'd flunk any class I was teaching, that's for damn sure). You're not experienced as a herpetoculturalist, have not faced the situations that have been faced by the people you're so willing to condemn. You constantly bring up completely unrelated topics, like mammal euthanasia and mercy killing of human beings. You do not belong in this kind of discussion.

"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing." -Harlan Ellison

Informed individuals discussing the subject will have their preferences, their positions and their personal conclusions. They'll also know enough not to express their position by asking why we don't stick humans in a freezer.