Not eating, Swelling joints, always tired

[Spots]

Sorry, I know that you guys must get annoyed with all these questions but...
Spots hasn't eaten in a long time...like weeks..maybe even a month. I try to feed her and hand feed her but she just won't budge. She eats her own shed though so maybe she's living off that. Her tail is still decently large and she was great up until a few days ago. Her joints look red and swollen and when i touch her, she doesn't even care anymore. She just lays there with her eyes closed. Even last week she was running around crazy and now she is so...deadlike... She seems really white so I'm assuming she is going to shed soon but when she does get up to move, it looks like she's having problems getting up. Like shes sore or her arms can't support her. It's kind of sad to watch but I might just be getting paranoid.

Any help would be great! Maybe she just has the flu and will get better in a few days? She usually doesn't like to eat this time of year. It happened last year but without the swelling joints and stuff. Also, it's very very humid in my area, and I don't have a de-humidifier. I love spots to death but to spend money on a de-humidifer for her seems kind of out of my budget.

 

[the reptileo]

possibly metobolic bone dieseas?

 

[Spots]

I was hoping it wasn't that...

 

[fl_orchidslave]

How often do you use calcium supplementsand what kind? Is there a little dish of calcium in the tank available at all times? Do her legs look bowed at all?

 

[Spots]

I used to use calcium supplement all the time but since she has not eaten in weeks, she hasn't gotten any with her meals. I have a dish of calcium and a dish of calcium + D3 in her tank. I did a photoshoot with her a week ago and everything was fine. So I took those pictures and compared it with her today and she is definately not the same as last week. But no, her feet aren't bowed..not that I can see anyways.

 

[the reptileo]

sorry but im confident that what you have described is MBD i advise to take to the vet as soon as possible.
hope she gets better soon

 

[Spots]

After doing some research...I think she has MBD I looked at some photos and compared it to her and it just makes sense. I dunno why though! She has two different types of calcium with her all the time and when she stopped eating, I thought she was just being moody like she was last year

When she walks, it's like she has no grip on anything anymore too

How long can I wait until I see a vet? The vet is closed now so I'll have to call tmrw but I just wanted to know how long I have. Also, do you know if it's cureable and if Spots will have after affects? Andd....does anyone have a range as to how much this will cost??

Here's the picture of her arm...let me know what you think. This all happened over night

 

[the reptileo]

im no expert of leopard geckos since im only 13 and i only got my first ever leo like a month ago but i did about 5 months of reaserch...
dont trust me completly try get some advice of someone more experienced but im sure late signs of MBD is something called rubber jaw.. is your gecko's jaw veary weak and floppy like? if its not and its still strong then im pretty sure its the veary start of MBD Like you said it happend overnight... so it will be ok for a few days without the vet but still try get it there as soon as possible :/ as for the costs i really do have no idea
I really do hope he gets better its horrible to see an animal in such pain and discomfort when you can do nothing about it

 

[Spots]

thanks


anyone else with information?

 

[the reptileo]

im ashamed no one else wil help.
You need to get it to a certified reptile vet (NOT a cat/dog vet who will see a reptile) as soon as possible.

That said, this will be a condition you will have to deal with for the rest of his life, unfortunately. The main cause of this condition is a calcium deficiency. If you do not have sand as a substrate (and at this point if you do, I'd strongly advise you take him off ANY particle substrate - sand, wood chips, millet, etc., and put him on plain paper towel at least until he is doing better) put out a small dish of calcium supplement powder. The leopard gecko is able to regulate their own calcium levels if that is available. Just make sure they can't eat sand or other substrate with it, or it will only make the problem worse.

Your vet may also recommend a low level UVB light. Normally they don't require one, but in cases of advanced MBD, as you are describing, you'll need that extra boost. Whenever you can, you'll also want to take the leo outside to get real sunlight. This will help him immensely.
i found this of google.

 

[OhioGecko]

How are you heating your hot spot?

What is your tank temps, hot and cold side?

How are you measuring your hot spot?

Can you post a pic of the top and bottom of the gecko?

 

[Spots]

Yea..I could only get a vet appointment for today (which was about 3 days after I found her like this). I'll keep you guys posted.

Like I said, I don't know what happened. It all happened overnight. She is on carpet and always have been. She's always had both types of calcium (pure calcium, and ones with D3). All her food has always been dusted. She has a double level 20 gallon tank so she has 2 cool sides and a hot side. 32-34C for the hot side...about 27-29ish? for the cool sides. Under the tank heater, no UV light. Her tail is still nice and fat. I set up her tank from all the information from this site so I'm not sure what happened. The only thing I couldn't control is the humidity. It's super humid here so maybe that's why? But I'm not sure.

2 more hours until the vet!

 

[M_surinamensis]

im ashamed no one else wil help.
You need to get it to a certified reptile vet (NOT a cat/dog vet who will see a reptile) as soon as possible.

The second half of that is why you didn't see much about the first.

A description and a photograph of symptoms are not sufficient information in order to responsibly form a diagnosis. It is irresponsible and potentially dangerous to diagnose someone else's animal remotely, based on one photograph and their subjective description of the visible symptoms. Suggesting treatment options is similarly irresponsible for the same reasons. Even if the person is otherwise qualified to do so- which most people are not.

Most of the people who opened and read the thread likely closed it again without responding because they were incapable of offering any better advice than "See a vet." which had already been said.

It is far less shameful to simply recommend a vet visit or stay silent than it is to attempt to remotely diagnose an animal or suggest a course of treatment. Staying quiet harms nothing any further than it already has been. Stepping up and making an unqualified diagnosis with insufficient information to confirm it then going on to give him a list of treatment options is potentially very dangerous.

The one who should be ashamed is the one who stepped in and said, without room for leeway or language that added disclaimers, that it was MBD. They aren't in a position to reliably determine that and they should not have attempted to in the first place.

Furthermore, MBD rarely* presents with acute symptoms until the extremely late stages when death is inevitable, it is generally a fairly gradual and predictable onset as the problems appear and then become worse over time. While MBD is one potential cause of the symptoms he has seen and described, it is not the only one- and the timeline he presented is uncommon and would tend to lead to other suspects being investigated... by a competent, educated, legally allowed to diagnose and treat animals... veterinarian.

All of which tends to make "what is wrong?" threads on forums kind of pointless- although it is understandable why an owner might try writing one when confronted with a sick or injured animal. The only people who are willing to respond with an opinion are the exact people who don't know enough to have an opinion that is worth considering. Anyone who would be capable of an informed diagnosis or prescribing a course of treatment will be unwilling to offer one without a direct examination of the animal in question.

*not never

 

[Spots]

I moreso just wanted to ask for opinions on this forum to see if it is anything I should be concerned about or if I am just being paranoid.

I just got back from the vet and...I'm not sure bout the vet...She seemed very agressive. Are most vets like that? Anyways, she pulled all the shed off of Spots and then quickly checked her out. Spots' one arm was swollen and red with a bump on it so the vet said it could be arthritis so I got some antibotics for her. Spots' tounge was also brusied but the vet didn't really have a conclusion for that. Lastly, this may seem far fetch...but after I got back from the vet, I went to check Spots' toes for stuck shed, and I noticed one was kind of red and limp. I've always checked Spots' toes for stuck shed everytime she's shed and haven't noticed this before. So Do you think the vet might have broken the toe when she was pulling off the shed? Like I said, she did seem a bit agressive...

Anyways, just wanted to say Spots is okay for now

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Antibiotics for arthritis in a leopard gecko???? By aggressive, do you mean rough handling? I would be looking for a new vet.

 

[OhioGecko]

The second half of that is why you didn't see much about the first.

A description and a photograph of symptoms are not sufficient information in order to responsibly form a diagnosis. It is irresponsible and potentially dangerous to diagnose someone else's animal remotely, based on one photograph and their subjective description of the visible symptoms. Suggesting treatment options is similarly irresponsible for the same reasons. Even if the person is otherwise qualified to do so- which most people are not.

Most of the people who opened and read the thread likely closed it again without responding because they were incapable of offering any better advice than "See a vet." which had already been said.

It is far less shameful to simply recommend a vet visit or stay silent than it is to attempt to remotely diagnose an animal or suggest a course of treatment. Staying quiet harms nothing any further than it already has been. Stepping up and making an unqualified diagnosis with insufficient information to confirm it then going on to give him a list of treatment options is potentially very dangerous.

The one who should be ashamed is the one who stepped in and said, without room for leeway or language that added disclaimers, that it was MBD. They aren't in a position to reliably determine that and they should not have attempted to in the first place.

Furthermore, MBD rarely* presents with acute symptoms until the extremely late stages when death is inevitable, it is generally a fairly gradual and predictable onset as the problems appear and then become worse over time. While MBD is one potential cause of the symptoms he has seen and described, it is not the only one- and the timeline he presented is uncommon and would tend to lead to other suspects being investigated... by a competent, educated, legally allowed to diagnose and treat animals... veterinarian.

All of which tends to make "what is wrong?" threads on forums kind of pointless- although it is understandable why an owner might try writing one when confronted with a sick or injured animal. The only people who are willing to respond with an opinion are the exact people who don't know enough to have an opinion that is worth considering. Anyone who would be capable of an informed diagnosis or prescribing a course of treatment will be unwilling to offer one without a direct examination of the animal in question.

*not never

If your speaking about my questions you assumed too much. I asked about the habitat because most of the time newer gecko owners don't have their habitat setup correctly. If the habitat is not setup and the temps are not correct the gecko will fail to thrive.

I asked to see picks of the top and bottom of the gecko to see if it had signs of MDB and if the stomach showed some discoloration. If the stomach was abnormal I was going to recommend getting it to a VET asap for a fecal. Either way it needed to go to the VET. I wasn't trying to diagnose but to help ask the right questions when they took it to the vet.

By the way, did the Vet take a fecal? And is the temp measured by an ambient thermometer, heat gun or probe thermometer?

 

[M_surinamensis]

If your speaking about my questions you assumed too much.

Nope. This ->

im confident that what you have described is MBD

 

[OhioGecko]

Nope. This ->

OK, LOL.... It seems I may have reacted a little defensive there.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Big difference between helping them double check their care parameters- which is perfectly appropriate and helpful and exactly what you were doing...

... and deciding why an animal is ill without ever seeing it. Which you did not, but which the reptileo did.

Honest mistake- desire to help out and all that, but I figured it'd be best to let him know why he shouldn't- especially once he wrote a post that suggested that more people should.

Edit:

Antibiotics for arthritis in a leopard gecko????

Arthritis is a term that simply means swelling around the joints.

With human arthritis we tend to mentally connect it to a specific disorder or set of disorders that are constantly mentioned by people selling pain relief cream and asprin to the elderly.

Any swelling of the joints is arthritis though. It can easily be caused by bacterial infections in or near the connective tissue or associated musculature of a joint. These kinds of infections can happen as a result of injury allowing a bacteria buildup in the damaged tissue, nutritional imbalances or improper environmental conditions that have weakened the immune system or the ability of the cells to replicate and repair themselves and physiological anomalies like blocked circulatory pathways.

That also fits the more immediate development of the issues that Spots noticed as a timeline and the red discoloration.

If one assumes the vet is competent- which I am not about to comment on because I have no clue who they are and didn't see the exam firsthand- then it's a perfectly reasonable diagnosis and treatment option.

 

[Spots]

Antibiotics for arthritis in a leopard gecko???? By aggressive, do you mean rough handling? I would be looking for a new vet.

Yea..the vet seemed to be rough handling her. She pulled all the shed off of Spots really quickly and scratched (not even took a wet Q-tip) all the shed off her toes (which is why I think Spots' toe is now broken) and then grabbed Spots around the neck to give her the antibiotics. Spots was squirming a lot. It was hard to watch. When I got home, and needed to give her the antibiotics the next day, Spots just sat there and let me feed it to her without any squirming. I didn't even need to hold her down. she just sat on my leg and opened her mouth for me. So I don't know why the vet had to be so rough about it.

Also, they charged me $100 bucks for the check up and antibiotics and then only gave me 4 out of the 5 doses/seringes that I paid for. (one seringe was broken tho so I couldn't give it to Spots)

Definately looking for a new vet. This one was referred to me by the reptile vet tho (she was on vacation) so I assumed this vet would be good but I did not like it. lol

My advice to everyone: Do your research before going to the vet. lol