Our Enigma Hatchings have the Dreaded Enigma Isuues

[Sandra]

I think the more appropriate term would be sacrifice, not "kill."

You're right. I'm at work right now and cannot take my time to choose the words carefully.

I guess performing a biopsy on such tiny animals while keeping them alive must be nearly impossible. But it's still sad.

I'm inclined to say that whatever is affecting some Enigmas is statistically more remote than what I've seen claimed elsewhere.

I'm inclined to think that too. In this other thread Kelli stated:

Most act completly normal, some exhibit a slight "slowness", a few are really weird acting (walking in circles). In no way do ALL of them walk in circles (sorry Albey, but I've produced over a hundred Enigmas and I know this is not the case)

Which makes me think that only a low percentage of the enigmas she has produced are showing issues. You both have produced enough quantity to start to figure out the numbers.

Which percentage of enigmas would you say that are affected? More or less.

 

[malt_geckos]

Bummer! Sorry to see they are having issues. I really hope that this issue can be found with the extensive testing.

 

[GeckoJunkie]

Has anyone ever just sat and watched the enigma when he/she is not being moved or harrassed in any way. I mean do they act and move normally when they are left in the tub on the rack.

 

[Sandra]

Has anyone ever just sat and watched the enigma when he/she is not being moved or harrassed in any way. I mean do they act and move normally when they are left in the tub on the rack.

Mine usually does. She always looks a little weak while moving, but at least she doesn't walk in circles unless she's upset.

It seems to be the same for all enigmas affected. Stress triggers the weird behaviour.

 

[KelliH]

Has anyone ever just sat and watched the enigma when he/she is not being moved or harrassed in any way. I mean do they act and move normally when they are left in the tub on the rack.

Yes, when not being "bothered" they act normally. This behavior is most certainly brought on by stressful situations, which is one point I have been trying to make all along. That is why some "non affected" animals start showing these odd behaviors after being shipped and during breeding. If left alone for awhile (other than to do necessary tasks such as feeding/cleaning) some of them will stop the odd behavior. Some will not, unfortunately.

I think that what everyone of us needs to realize and accept is that all Enigmas have the potential to start behaving oddly at some point in their lives, some hatch this way and then "outgrow" it, some hatch this way and do not, some hatch normally and act normally indefinitely. This is not something that can be "bred out of the morph" as was initially believed IMO.

As far as what percentage hatch with this odd behavior, from what I have observed it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% of Enigmas. Non Enigma siblings are not affected.

 

[PSGeckos]

Has anyone ever just sat and watched the enigma when he/she is not being moved or harrassed in any way. I mean do they act and move normally when they are left in the tub on the rack.

We both last night watch out Enig hatchlings and 001 was still going around and around,
002 seemed to have carmed down but still went around but not as much but managed to walk around the tub,
We dont keep harrassing them they are left alone all day and night but i do pop in from time to time to see whats happening.

 

[KelliH]

One more quick point I want to make is that with time most of the Enigmas that I have hatched that have done the circling at hatching stop doing that by the time they are about 15 grams.

 

[KelliH]

We dont keep harrassing them they are left alone all day and night but i do pop in from time to time to see whats happening.

Yes, it's not as if we can -never- bother them, after all, we have to clean cages and feed them!

I just hope that we can all have a clear explanation of what is going on with the morph soon. I think we will.

 

[KelliH]

BTW (sorry to keep posting over and over!) Sandra, your idea about a fund for Enigmas was a good one, and I appreciate that you thought of it.

 

[GeckoJunkie]

Thats kinda the point I was getting to Kelli, Granted I have not had the dealing with enigmas like you and others, but I do pay alot of attention to this morph. I was in the same line of thought as far as it being stress related. I have only ever seen one gecko that even when left alone for hours, it would still move and circle. This gecko never did thrive and eventually died. The first two that I hatched out this year would circle, they did this for the first week to ten days and then they both just stopped!?! And have not done it anymore.
PS geckos....I was in no way trying to insinuate(sp) that you were purposely harrassing your geckos, I was just wondering if when totally left alone would they still do it in their normal routine. Sorry for any confusion on that.

 

[Kotsay1414]

Maybe we could start a blog or website about this to share the results of the research and discuss them?

Sandra, I can create a blog if everyone feels it would be beneficial.

 

[PSGeckos]

PS geckos....I was in no way trying to insinuate(sp) that you were purposely harrassing your geckos, I was just wondering if when totally left alone would they still do it in their normal routine. Sorry for any confusion on that.[/QUOTE]


None taken i just want to make clear to others that we are not harrassing them

 

[KelliH]

None taken i just want to make clear to others that we are not harrassing them

I harass my geckos all the time, I'm sure they get sooo tired of seeing my mugg! :main_laugh:

 

[GeckoJunkie]

:joker: arty2: :sick2:
I guess to some extent we all harrass them!!!

 

[lytlesnake]

Non Enigma siblings are not affected.

But do you think they could carry the gene that causes the odd behavior?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

But do you think they could carry the gene that causes the odd behavior?

Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[PSGeckos]

Got an appointment to see our rep vet as he is very interested in seeing these poor leos, we will post all infomation that is passed onto via this thread on monday evening:main_thumbsup:

If people are looking at getting this problem resolved from all areas of the world it will be very interesting to share all results and see if more than one specialist come back with the same findings:main_thumbsup:

Hope this makes sense my PA Sarah is a college at the mo and my English is dreadfull :main_thumbsdown:

Kelli can i ask how many Enigmas you have roughly got that are having this problem?

Lets hope we all can get this resolved Good luck all

 

[lytlesnake]

If it is indeed stress related, my guess is that the part of their brain that deals with stress is somehow damaged in relation to the part of the brain that governs their normal reflexes. Perhaps some neural pathways are physically altered. It is very interesting that this behavior accompanies the visual calico gene.

 

[KelliH]

But do you think they could carry the gene that causes the odd behavior?

No, because the gene that causes the odd behavior is the same gene that causes the gecko to be an "Enigma". There are no "Het" Enigmas, there are Enigmas and there are non Enigmas.

Kelli can i ask how many Enigmas you have roughly got that are having this problem?

I have less than 10 that as adults are exhibiting the behavior in question, most are from the original group I obtained to sell for Mark, two that I hatched out myself and one that came from another breeder. The two that I hatched myself developed the behavior as adult or near adult animals, the ones from Mark were subadult to adult size when I got them, the one from the other breeder was normal until he began breeding, and even now the behavior is subtle, as it is with most of them. There is one that is very effected, though she was not until very recently after a stressful situation.

 

[GeckoJunkie]

I have been wondering if this is something that would still affect them into adulthood. This just like with the enigmas, we are learning more everyday. And yes I believe also that stress is a MAJOR factor in this.