Outcrossing with sub-species

[gothra]

When out-crossing with the sub-species such as Afghanicus and Fasiolatus, how will the off-springs differ in terms of physical structure and appearance?

 

[Gazz]

When out-crossing with the sub-species such as Afghanicus and Fasiolatus, how will the off-springs differ in terms of physical structure and appearance?

longterm pet leo's E.M.DOMESTICUS has the blood of pretty much all the leo family anyway.If you was to for example breed a E.M.DOMESTICUS X E.M.AFGANICUS(pure blood) or E.M.FASIOLATUS(pure blood) the offspring would just be E.M.DOMESTICUS(NEW blood).If you was to breed a E.M.AFGANICUS(pure blood) X E.M.FASIOLATUS(pure blood) the offspring would be hybrid/intergrade as to know that there 50/50 cross's and you know there full captive history.

They look pretty much like you every day leo's.

First gen Regular/Fasiolatus cross E.M.DOMESTICUS(new blood).
http://www.geckoforums.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=3381&cat=500&ppuser=271
http://www.geckoforums.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=3380&cat=500&ppuser=271
http://www.geckoforums.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2423&cat=500&ppuser=271

First gen from Balbino X Fasiolatus.
http://www.geckoforums.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2558&cat=500&ppuser=271

 

[paulnj]

afghanicus influence the offspring with patterning, size and color from my observation of the afghanicus X raptors from A&M and my own outcrosses.

Fasciolatus influence body structure and coloring from my observation in my crosses.

Not only that, but it strengthens the gene pool and is just a petstore animal as mentioned above in my opinion. Then again... I own mine and am jaded:main_laugh:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I agree with Paul... these sub-species are pure, un-cluttered genes. I have only worked with the E. fasciolatus, and Albey feels that they may be the source of the snow gene. The E. fasciolatus and Mack Snows cross to create the most beautiful pastel/lavender geckos I have ever seen.

As far as the physical differences, the E. fasciolatus is long and lean. They are feisty and vocalize anytime they are annoyed.

The E. afghanicus are very small, stocky-built geckos that are more social and calmer than the other sub-species.

The E. montanus is h-u-g-e compared to the others. This is the sub-specie that was used in creating the 'giant' line.

There is still argument over whether these are a true sub-species or simply a locality, but they are all leopard geckos. They are all genetically compatible. The geckos we have here in the USA are basically "mutts".... a combination of these sub-species/localities.

 

[paulnj]

I was joking about the pet store gecko comment.

My fasciolatus X eclipse is one of the coolest het eclipses I have and I don't think I would sell it for any amount(well maybe). I don't think it's het tremper either, but dad needs more proving before I make that call. He is as Marcia said .... Lavendar, long and lean and loves to make noise.

My afghanicus when housed seperate didn't do as well as in pairs. I have a .4 living together and they seem to thrive even better than the pairs do.

The afghanicus X raptors from A&M are normal sized geckos(might have the giant gene as with alot of alberto's raptors?), but look like no other het raptor on the planet if you ask me. My afghanicus X enigma stuff is very unique too and has very cool patterning.

At this moment I have afghanicus laying with... ssta,HG rainwater, eclipse enigma, redstripe, and a few others. When I have enough outcrossed animals of size, I will post a thread about them, but that won't be until spring.

 

[Okee Reps]

...The E. montanus is h-u-g-e compared to the others. This is the sub-specie that was used in creating the 'giant' line..

Interesting. So do you believe giants are line bred and not a co-dom?

- Sorry about hi-jacking.

 

[Gazz]

The E. montanus is h-u-g-e compared to the others. This is the sub-specie that was used in creating the 'giant' line.

What are people beleaves on the genetic of giants ??.If they did indeed come from the speices E.M.MONTANUS which are big leo.Are they co-dom and if that 100% the case wouldn't that make all E.M.MONTANUS a locally percific population of (co-dom)super giants ??.That breed true due to only breeding super giant X super giant = 100%super giant.So E.M.MONTANUS are super giants then bred to E.M.DOMESTICUS giving 100%giants'etc'etc.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Interesting. So do you believe giants are line bred and not a co-dom?

Since I do not work with 'giants', I can't really say. All I know is that I have 9-10" geckos that weigh over 115 grams, and they are not 'giants'.

 

[SaSobek]

The E. montanus is h-u-g-e compared to the others. This is the sub-specie that was used in creating the 'giant' line.

The E. m. montanus that i have are not huge they are normal sized and are alot like the E. m. fasciolatus. But as babies did look different. The really big ones are the E.angramainyu. below is a E.m.fasciolatus on the left and a E.m.montanus on the right. They are both about the same age if anything the E.m.montanus is older The fascioltus is and 2nd generation from wild caught and it was hatched by me. the montanus came from across the pond and i have had the group for well over a year.
View attachment 17798
This is head shots of the E.m.montanus. imo the heads do not look the same as giants either.
View attachment 17799
View attachment 17800

The outcrossing with the E.m.fasciolatus do give you geckos with more of the lavender color, i have yet to see them as being leaner. but i can say that they dont seem to get as obese either. they stay at a great breeding and healthy weight.

As far as out crossing my fasciolatus, I have crossed them into my bell line to improve on making a more lavender bell (kinda scraped that) and improving the bell enigma by adding the "new blood". the first generation stuff didnt look like much and i basically made "normals" het for bell with the fasciolatus blood. from that i breed them to a bell super snow and a bell enigma. below are pictures of what the babies of the cross look like. The cross with the enigma lets just say takes away some unwanted things that enigmas do. :main_thumbsup:
Bell Enigma from fasciolatus blood line ( kinda see the lavender bands)
View attachment 17796
Snow bells from fasciolatus blood line (not as much lavender as i wanted but will make some realy nice snow bell enigmas)
View attachment 17797

 

[SaSobek]

I was joking about the pet store gecko comment.

My fasciolatus X eclipse is one of the coolest het eclipses I have and I don't think I would sell it for any amount(well maybe). I don't think it's het tremper either, but dad needs more proving before I make that call. He is as Marcia said .... Lavendar, long and lean and loves to make noise.

My afghanicus when housed seperate didn't do as well as in pairs. I have a .4 living together and they seem to thrive even better than the pairs do.

The afghanicus X raptors from A&M are normal sized geckos(might have the giant gene as with alot of alberto's raptors?), but look like no other het raptor on the planet if you ask me. My afghanicus X enigma stuff is very unique too and has very cool patterning.

At this moment I have afghanicus laying with... ssta,HG rainwater, eclipse enigma, redstripe, and a few others. When I have enough outcrossed animals of size, I will post a thread about them, but that won't be until spring.

The Eublepharis macularius afghanicus are in my oppinion are one of the coolest things anyone can get in there collection. the pattern is crazy that you can get (very bold) and as paul was saying they do better in groups.
View attachment 17801

The crossing that was done with them was first to the RAPTOR line to get all of the genetic soup that the RAPTOR brings (Tremper albino, eye gean, color, and pattern) that cross was done in 07 and we called them "Afra" (it dosent mean anything it was just short for the cross).
This is one of the "Afra"s
View attachment 17802

This year (08) we did some different things to the "Afra"s

"afra" X "afra" that gave us all kinds of weird looking stuff wish i had pictures of and a few eclipse stuff as well.

"afra" x Enigma het Raptor this gave us the cool colors and weird patterns and again took away some unwanted things that the enigmas do

View attachment 17803

View attachment 17804

both crosses grow very well, with good hatch rates, and better average egg production.

If you have any Questions please ask i will do my best to tell you all i know so far about them and what we are doing with the sub-species that we have so far. Some day i would love to get all of them but 2 of them lets just say are almost impossable to get as of right now. :main_thumbsup:

 

[KelliH]

The wild caught E. m. montanus I worked with was huge. About one half of her babies were big like her, with extra long tails. I think the outcrossing is a good idea, but I also hope we can keep some of them pure ssp.'s too.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The E. m. montanus that i have are not huge they are normal sized and are alot like the E. m. fasciolatus. But as babies did look different. The really big ones are the E.angramainyu. below is a E.m.fasciolatus on the left and a E.m.montanus on the right. They are both about the same age if anything the E.m.montanus is older The fascioltus is and 2nd generation from wild caught and it was hatched by me. the montanus came from across the pond and i have had the group for well over a year.

Actually, I thought it was the E. turkmenicus that was the largest, and E. angramainyu was the smallest. According to the specifications and classifications done by Anderson and Leviton, the E. angramainyu has an average snout to vent length of 13-14.5 cm, where the E. afghanicus is 14.5-16 cm. The E. turkmenicus averages about 17 cm snout to vent.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If you get a chance, take a look at the book "The Lizards of Iran" by Steven C. Anderson. It has the most comprehensive study of E. macularius ssp. ever conducted (other than field studies by several Russian Universities). It gives great detail on the natural history, geographical terrain, as well as size comparisons and digit structure & sub-labial scale counts for the Eublepharids found in the Middle East.

 

[SaSobek]

The wild caught E. m. montanus I worked with was huge. About one half of her babies were big like her, with extra long tails. I think the outcrossing is a good idea, but I also hope we can keep some of them pure ssp.'s too.

We are doing both:main_thumbsup:


By the way your wild caught E. m. montanus, didn’t you get that on a breeder loan from a friend of yours (at the time) that has since kind lied about getting some wild caught things that some people lost some money and well he is no longer part of this forum. I actually think this is the girl right here. A picture from his website www.intenseherp.com

She did give you some big babies. But as her being what that guy said, I would take that with a grain of salt. Maybe it was something better, maybe E. angramainyu.

The places that I got the subspecies that I got, came from well know breeders in Europe, And I would put money on they are what they are.

Actually, I thought it was the E. turkmenicus that was the largest, and E. angramainyu was the smallest. According to the specifications and classifications done by Anderson and Leviton, the E. angramainyu has an average snout to vent length of 13-14.5 cm, where the E. afghanicus is 14.5-16 cm. The E. turkmenicus averages about 17 cm snout to vent.

well to get really technical the E. angramainyu is the largest one that you can get right now. The E. fuscus is the largest but comes from India and lets just say India doesn’t let them out of the country or we would have the E. hardwickii as well

The report that Anderson and Leviton did was a publication that was done in 1966. Since then there has been other research done.

According to a book done in 2005 “The Eyelash Geckos” by Seufer, Kaverkin, and Kirschner page 96

E. angramainyu head and trunk length 17cm tail 12.5 cm (could explain the lanky look of the giant)
E. fuscus head and trunk length 25.2 cm tail 8.4 cm
E. hardwickii head and trunk length 11.5 cm tail 8.5 cm
E. macularius head and trunk length 15.8 cm tail 9.7 cm (they group the macularius together and not by local )
E. turmericus head and trunk length 14.3 cm tail 8 cm (I have these guys too ):main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

According to a book done in 2005 “The Eyelash Geckos” by Seufer, Kaverkin, and Kirschner page 96

I'd love to have a copy of that book... maybe Santa will bring me one!

 

[paulnj]

Awesome info everyone and thanks for sharing Matt.

 

[supperl]

Paul's right awsome infos!

 

[gothra]

Wow, thanks everyone for the awesome info!!

 

[Gregg M]

longterm pet leo's E.M.DOMESTICUS

Did you make that up yourself???

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There is no such specie or sub-specie as Eublepharis macularius domesticus. It's just a fancy name for a leopard gecko "mutt'... which is basically what we all have now.