Pet Store vs. Breeder

[meech]

I'm new here and I'm thinking about getting a Leo, but I'm not sure if buying from a breeder would be better than a pet store. I'm not going to be breeding, but I still want a healthy gecko. So I guess my real question is, is it worth spending the extra money getting one from a breeder because it will be healthier?

 

[Stitchex]

YES. Most(not all) "big" pet stores have their Leos on sand and in cramped tanks. If you look at the links of the breeders on here in your top right corner, you'll probably get a good, healthy Leo.

 

[snowgyre]

Not only that, but a breeder knows when your animal was born, who its parents were, how much it weighs, and virtually all the personal information that pet shops DON'T know. Now, pick your breeder carefully because there are a few rotten apples out there, but if you've found the gecko of your dreams you can post who's got it and we can tell you if the breeder is trustworthy or not. ;-)

 

[acpart]

The biggest cost in buying from a breeder can be shipping costs. It's well worth it, but if you don't have to pay it, it's better for the gecko and for your pocketbook. If you let us know where you live, maybe there are some breeders in your area, or maybe you could go to a reptile show. That way you don't have to pay shipping and the leo doesn't have to get shipped.

Aliza

 

[SteveB]

have their Leos on sand and in cramped tanks.

As opposed to breeders who have their leos in plastic shoeboxes?

Nothing wrong with sand used responsibly, either.

The risk of purchasing a sick animal is a far bigger issue.



Look for a local breeder to get you started off right, or go to an expo and talk to everyone until you start getting hoarse... much better than mo

 

[thestack510]

As a rule I don't buy animals from chain stores. I would definitely opt for a breeder. I would avoid sand regardless of what others might say about it being harmless. Geckos lick everything and if they ingest sand will get impacted as it builds up in time. If you've ever seen a case of impaction, it's not a pretty site. Denying that it can and does happen is just ignorant IMO.

 

[2bacop]

I have one of both, my first one was from the pets store I work at (one of the major chains) and my second one is from a breeder. (chris smith a.k.a. yellermelon). My baby although very healthy now was not when she was shipped to our store, nor are any of the others. In my store we have to keep them in the back and nurse them back to health, but most stores dont do that. My new baby who i just got this week was born 3-8-09 and is a lot bigger and healthier than the one from my pet store was even though she was a couple months older when I brought her home. Here are pictures of both when I got them. Callista (my pet store baby) is about 4 months old in the first pic. and Benson (my breeder baby) is 1 month and a few days old in this picture. They look the same age to me even though they are not.

 

[Tommy13b]

ID prefure breeder simply because they will be healthyer, and breeders have more of a selection.

 

[Crabbygirl]

Anybody breeding in or close to Idaho?

 

[SteveB]

As a rule I don't buy animals from chain stores. I would definitely opt for a breeder. I would avoid sand regardless of what others might say about it being harmless. Geckos lick everything and if they ingest sand will get impacted as it builds up in time. If you've ever seen a case of impaction, it's not a pretty site. Denying that it can and does happen is just ignorant IMO.

Are you calling me ignorant?

 

[Stitchex]

As opposed to breeders who have their leos in plastic shoeboxes?

Nothing wrong with sand used responsibly, either.

When I mean cramped enclosures, I mean when there's about 10 or so to a 5 gallon tank. I keep my Leos in 16 quart tubs, seperate, and take them out every day. I don't see anything wrong keeping them in plastic shoeboxes as long as their tanks are clean and they don't degrade in health. Another issue with pet stores: hygenic issues for some cases. Of course, there are some breeders that keep bacteria infested tanks, but I believe that the risk is much higher at a pet store.

About the sand, there's something I don't get. How can sand be used responsibly, in question to a Leo's health? There's always a risk of impaction with sand(or any other loose substrate, for that matter), and loose material is much harder to clean better, the defecated material can become covered up from the Leo's activities. I understand that it's a matter of the breeder's choice, when it comes down to it, but I just don't understand that.

No offense meant.

 

[SteveB]

I don't necessarily believe a sterile environment produces healthier animals.

Think of a fish tank; where the substrate, filled with bacteria, contributes to the health of everything in the tank.

Think of organic farming, where chickens and pigs live in conditions where the ground below them, harboring with beneficial bacteria, contributes to cleanliness by breaking down excrement on the spot.

 

[Stitchex]

How would bacteria ridden feces help the health of a Leo?

 

[SteveB]

If you feed in a dish, or outside the enclosure, you minimize risk of the leo getting a mouthful of substrate.

8-10 years ago, I was a "sand nazi" and got into some very public flame wars against proponents of keeping leos on sand.

Some years into keeping leos, I changed my perspective as I moved to naturalistic enclosures. Leos live on compacted substrate and hard surfaces in the wild, but they certainly DO encounter loose substrate. Presently, I use slate in most of my tanks.

These days, I understand the role of the environment and maintaining an equilibrium... in organic farming healthy substrate contains enough beneficial organisms to process waste, neutralizing odors and outcompeting harmful bacteria... and in the pet trade, look at fishtanks, look at dart frog enclosures, and many naturalistic terrarium designs that count on the role of bacteria, worms, plants, and more to create a complete miniature ecosystem.

 

[Stitchex]

True, feeding in a dish does minimize the risk, but as an earlier post said, they lick everything, them being so curious. They do encounter loose substrate in the wild, but they ALSO live shorter lives in the wilderness. Of course, part of that could be contributed to predators, competition, etc. But, I also bet part of the reason for their shorter life spans in the wild have to do with the loose substrate.

I disagree with keeping sand and feces in enclosures in order to have a complete ecosystem. Where's the predators that would make it complete? If one keeps their Leos on a safe material and cleans the tank and water bowl regularly, the chance of harmful bacteria is reduced.

 

[Barbel]

Think of a fish tank; where the substrate, filled with bacteria, contributes to the health of everything in the tank. Think of organic farming, where chickens and pigs live in conditions where the ground below them, harboring with beneficial bacteria, contributes to cleanliness by breaking down excrement on the spot.

First off, there is a HUGE difference between beneficial bacteria and just plain bacteria. In an aquarium, yes there is an amount of beneficial bacteria that needs to be in place to maintain a healthy aquarium. That is why a tank needs to be cycled before you add fish, BUT if you don't clean your tank you are going to have a rise in bad bacterias, nitrates, nitrites and ammonia, which is caused by death of a fish, excess food and fish waste. This will all kill your fish.
On farms, the manure is removed from the animals living area and placed in a compost heap to create a natural fertilizer which is then used to grow crops. In open areas there is also the sun, rain, plants, worms and other bugs that help to break down waste. If you let a coop become overrun with poo, your chickens will start to become sick.
In a natural terrarium with worms and plants, there is a cycle set up. The worms and the plants use the waste as food to grow, and the soil helps to break it down. It is not just sitting there like it would in a leo enclosure.
In a leo enclosure you are going to have your leos, their substrate and decor and that's it. Their poo will roll around in the sand, and even if you sift it, you will still probably miss a piece here an there. Those feces will not naturally dissolve into the sand because there is nothing breaking them down.
Poop just doesn't go away. The water will evaporate out of it, but the poop and it's bacteria will still be there. A cycle has to be set in place to break it down.
IMO it would be irresponsible to recommend sand as a substrate at all, but especially without at the very least explaining the risks of impaction. Even if you feed your geckos outside of the enclosure the risk is still present, because the sand is everywhere. They kick it around and it can even get into their water bowl. You can still have a naturalistic enclosure by using slate, tile or other types of rock are too big to ingest.

 

[2bacop]

lets not turn this thread into a sand debate...Take it to the fight club!

 

[SteveB]

Barbel I agree with you 100% and appreciate your obvious knowledge of the subject. I've been discussing some concepts here and entertaining this discussion because lately I have been doing some research on different techniques... I'm just going to break down your comments, for the sake of discussion

First off, there is a HUGE difference between beneficial bacteria and just plain bacteria. In an aquarium, yes there is an amount of beneficial bacteria that needs to be in place to maintain a healthy aquarium. That is why a tank needs to be cycled before you add fish, BUT if you don't clean your tank you are going to have a rise in bad bacterias, nitrates, nitrites and ammonia, which is caused by death of a fish, excess food and fish waste. This will all kill your fish.

Clearly, there is a distinction between beneficial bacteria and bacteria that are detrimental. There are ways of ensuring that beneficial bacteria will outcompete other types, by properly managing the environment. Of course in a small contained area it is extremely difficult to have the expectation that a system can remain closed and self sustaining forever.

On farms, the manure is removed from the animals living area and placed in a compost heap to create a natural fertilizer which is then used to grow crops. In open areas there is also the sun, rain, plants, worms and other bugs that help to break down waste. If you let a coop become overrun with poo, your chickens will start to become sick.

In the Philippines, there are farms that include composting methods right in a coup with no foul odors and healthy chickens... they provide litter mixtures of soil, compost and sawdust, innoculated with beneficial bacteria. As the chickens poohed, the sawdust (with compost and soil) absorb the moisture. The dug gets mixed naturally with the substrate through the chickens scratchings, which actually aerate the substrate. The beneficial bacteria arrest the foul odors and consequently help take off the toxins. In time, the chicken dung and the substrate becomes good organic fertilizers. No waste is created as the nutrient cycle completes.

In a natural terrarium with worms and plants, there is a cycle set up. The worms and the plants use the waste as food to grow, and the soil helps to break it down. It is not just sitting there like it would in a leo enclosure.
In a leo enclosure you are going to have your leos, their substrate and decor and that's it. Their poo will roll around in the sand, and even if you sift it, you will still probably miss a piece here an there. Those feces will not naturally dissolve into the sand because there is nothing breaking them down.
Poop just doesn't go away. The water will evaporate out of it, but the poop and it's bacteria will still be there. A cycle has to be set in place to break it down.

So I ask you, why can't we create a cycle in a leo enclosure? Just because leos are simple to care for, doesn't mean we need to continually simplify every aspect of care.

IMO it would be irresponsible to recommend sand as a substrate at all, but especially without at the very least explaining the risks of impaction. Even if you feed your geckos outside of the enclosure the risk is still present, because the sand is everywhere. They kick it around and it can even get into their water bowl. You can still have a naturalistic enclosure by using slate, tile or other types of rock are too big to ingest.

Slate/tile is my substrate of choice.

 

[Barbel]

Barbel I agree with you 100% and appreciate your obvious knowledge of the subject.

Okay good. I was afraid that you might go the other way...

In the Philippines, there are farms that include composting methods right in a coup with no foul odors and healthy chickens... they provide litter mixtures of soil, compost and sawdust, innoculated with beneficial bacteria. As the chickens poohed, the sawdust (with compost and soil) absorb the moisture. The dug gets mixed naturally with the substrate through the chickens scratchings, which actually aerate the substrate. The beneficial bacteria arrest the foul odors and consequently help take off the toxins. In time, the chicken dung and the substrate becomes good organic fertilizers. No waste is created as the nutrient cycle completes.

These farms were set up to be self sustaining like that, which I think is wonderful. I think more people need to do things like this in their everyday lives to be self sustaining as most have probably noticed from the GO GREEN post I started a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, in the U.S. not so many farms are set up like that, so they do have to be cleaned to reduce disease.

So I ask you, why can't we create a cycle in a leo enclosure? Just because leos are simple to care for, doesn't mean we need to continually simplify every aspect of care.

I am not saying that it is impossible to have a self sustaining environment for a leopard gecko, I am just saying that you can't put sand in a tank and call it a natural habitat, which is what was implied from you previous comments. This subject would have to be researched further. The proper soils, plants, worms/parasites and lighting would have to be determined. Also, just because leopard geckos encounter sand or loose substrate in the wild, does not mean that it is the best thing to have in their enclosure. You yourself also said they live MOSTLY on compacted substrate and hard surfaces in the wild. I am sure there are things in natural frog habitats that were excluded because of the risk of potential harm.
My main point was that sand should not be recommended as a substrate because most people are going to go for that simple set up and sand is too risky to the health of a leopard gecko and sand alone is not going to create a substantial ecosystem, there are many steps that need to be taken.

 

[SteveB]

I'm going to boost your GREEN thread... maybe take some of these thoughts over there...