porcelain tile

[ncbeast]

BTW the ultratherm cobra heat mat for the same size is a 28 watt uth. I'm pretty sure I had provided links for you on other threads to see the difference between the ultratherm cobra and the T-Rex cobra heatmats as the T-Rex cobra heat mat is a lower wattage even tho they're both cobras. I had also mentioned that if you really wanted to go with the ultratherm cobra you most likely would have had to order it from online as I have never seen them in stores, but I have seen the T-Rex cobra heat mats in some pet shops. Bit of a difference between them.
Also what kind of negative reviews have you seen on the cobra mat? I'm curious.

The only place I could find the 28 watt ultratherm online was a link I think you provided...http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...rect=true&qid=1292593856&sr=8-2&condition=all, but you go look at the retailers website it says it is 20 watts...http://www.swiftpetsupplies.co.uk/heat-mats-23-c.asp. I did not keep any of the sites where I found the negative reviews on the T-Rex, I just know I spent like a whole day researching it on the net.

I have emailed Exo-Terra to see if they have any other suggestions but I saw on their site that it is suppose to operate at 100 if the room temp is at least 72. So I know they are going to just say that my room temp is too low. So it looks like I am going to have to go with an infrared heat bulb and mount a strip of wood on the wall to clamp the lamp to so it does not interfear with the sliding top. Once summer hits and the room temp is 73-78 I am sure the UTH will be plenty if not too hot.

Now I need to figure out how I need to use the thermostat I bought which can control three products. I know I will use it for the UTH but should I also use it for the heat lamp as well? The lamp I bought does have a dimmer built in so I could adjust the heat bulb but that would have to be a manual thing.

Also with the temps I am getting now will a 50 watt heat bulb be enough, I think the higth of the tank is 18" plus maybe an inch or two above that?

Again thanks so much for the help.

 

[Joao]

The thermostat won't work right if you try to control both the light and uth with it.

If you have a light with the dimmer dial, get the highest wattage you can for the light fixture... You can always adjust it down.

 

[ncbeast]

The thermostat won't work right if you try to control both the light and uth with it.
If you have a light with the dimmer dial, get the highest wattage you can for the light fixture... You can always adjust it down.

Thanks Joao, but why would the thermostat not work right with controling the light and the UTH? The thermostat probe would be on the substrate and if the temp got above 95 it would shut them both down. Is this not how it would work?

Also Hagen did write back and just said that their heat mats where not designed to be the sole heat source and the low room temp that I have will have an effect on how hot the mat gets....

Looks like I am going to just get a heat bulb at least for the winter and see what summer brings....

Another thing I have been thinking about is the top of the tank with the screen. I have a towel over the whole top now trying to hold in the heat but once we get the Leos in there do not want to do that. I thought about getting some plexi cut covering about 3/4 of the whole top of the screen held on with some velcro and maybe just have that on in the winter. Of coarse the heat lamp would over the rear part of the screen that would not be covered.

 

[Joao]

From what I've read it won't keep temps correctly if you hook both of them up to the thermostat, but who knows... Maybe it will. Seems like everyone has different experiences with everything. The more I read the more contradicting it gets.

 

[ncbeast]

OK, just hit some stores on my lunch hour. Got a 150 watt infrared heat bulb (man that was expensive) and (2) 18" X 18" vinyl tiles (very inexpensive).

A little hesitent in using the vinyl tiles because I have read that they can emits some gasses when they are heated but I know Dog Shrink uses them with no issues. I would much rather this work so I do not have to worry about a heat lamp.

Plan now is to remove the poecelien tiles and trim the vinyl tiles but not remove the backing and just lay them in to see what kind of temp i get. If I can get the temp up to at least 95 I will stick them down and just go with that. If the temp still does not go up then will have to use the infrared heat lamp and play with the dimmer until i can get the right temp. Then plug the UTH and the heat bulb into the thermostat and see how it works.

Any other suggestions please let me know.

 

[Dog Shrink]

The vinyl tiles WILL NOT emit any noxious gasses unless they are heated over 200+ degrees and the plastic and glue start to melt. 150 watt infrared is super strong. I have a 75 watt and when I use it on my 20 long I can easily reach 106 degrees. Also if you do not stick the tiles down you could have the problem with the air gaps heating and the surface not. They are pretty easily removed if you do decide they don't work for you. No different and actually easier imo than removing a self stick uth.

Also my understanding of thermostats is to regulate temperature by either turning on or off heating elements so if you have a uth and a heat lamp plugged into it, is there a way to set a primary heating element (the uth) and the secondary element (the heat lamp)? If so then if the uth isn't reaching the desired temps then the termostat should in theory turn on the heat lamp top compensate for the lack of heat.

Something else I would do is go to the home store and get a sheet or 2 of insulation board (the stuff they wrap houses in before putting up vinyl siding), cut it to shape and stick it on the 3 sides of the tank. You can get some background images to sandwich inbetween the insulboard and the tank so you're not looking at the ugly insulation board or you can spray paint the one side that you will see in the tank to a nice color like black or white (to reflect the heat back inwards). This way you know you're not losing heat thru the glass surface. If you look back on our conversations on this I betcha you'll find the images of the plastic styrofoam insulation I use on the outside of my tank to keep the heat in. Right now in my house it is 66 degrees and with just running the uth Eros' tank is at 99.1

 

[ncbeast]

The vinyl tiles WILL NOT emit any noxious gasses unless they are heated over 200+ degrees and the plastic and glue start to melt. 150 watt infrared is super strong. I have a 75 watt and when I use it on my 20 long I can easily reach 106 degrees. Also if you do not stick the tiles down you could have the problem with the air gaps heating and the surface not. They are pretty easily removed if you do decide they don't work for you. No different and actually easier imo than removing a self stick uth.

I just purchased the 150 watt because the lamp I have has a dimmer and I will be able to dim it down and it was no more than the 50 or 75 watts. I really do not want to use this, would rather get the sumstrate at the right temp so it is more nautral for him. Then I could take the bulb back to the store for a refund.

Also my understanding of thermostats is to regulate temperature by either turning on or off heating elements so if you have a uth and a heat lamp plugged into it, is there a way to set a primary heating element (the uth) and the secondary element (the heat lamp)? If so then if the uth isn't reaching the desired temps then the termostat should in theory turn on the heat lamp top compensate for the lack of heat.

No, the one I have just turns off what ever is plugged into it when the set temp is reached and turns back on when it falls below the set temp. Not sure the +/- yet.

Something else I would do is go to the home store and get a sheet or 2 of insulation board (the stuff they wrap houses in before putting up vinyl siding), cut it to shape and stick it on the 3 sides of the tank. You can get some background images to sandwich inbetween the insulboard and the tank so you're not looking at the ugly insulation board or you can spray paint the one side that you will see in the tank to a nice color like black or white (to reflect the heat back inwards). This way you know you're not losing heat thru the glass surface. If you look back on our conversations on this I betcha you'll find the images of the plastic styrofoam insulation I use on the outside of my tank to keep the heat in. Right now in my house it is 66 degrees and with just running the uth Eros' tank is at 99.1

I do understand using the foam but the way the tank is set up and how it will be viewed I would rather not do the foam on the ends. With the tank divided we will be able to look in through the front or one of the sides at the different habitates. I am using the foam rock look background that is about an 1"-2" thick all accross the back which should help to hold some heat in. Once I get the temps up with the towel covering the top, if the temps go down or cannot be held without something covering 3/4 of the top I may get some plexiglass cut to cover 3/4 of the screen top to help hold the heat in.

.....

 

[Dog Shrink]

Sometimes you need to not worry so much about asthetics and worry more about how it will help your leos. With all the nice varities of spray paint out there today you could get something textured that looks like sand, or hammered steel... all different things to cover the look of the insulated board or even cover it with some nice fabric. Every answer you get that will help you have a kind of stupid reason for not wanting to do it... I give up.

 

[gothra]

If your functioning UTH is not providing you a warm spot above 90, then heat is probably lost to the surrounding (most likely bottom). Put some insulating material like cork board beneath your UTH. This will divert all heat to go up to heat the tile. Adding a thin layer of sand to fill the uneven bottom surface of the tile is a good idea. Both floor temps and ambient temps are important. Your leos will do better at 75-80F ambient temperature. I suggest you add a heater to your room if your temps are constantly below 70.

 

[Dog Shrink]

At this point adding more thickness to the area with a more conductive material such as sand is only going to disperse what little heat he is getting from his uth over a greater area thus by decreasing his overall surface temperature even more. I do agree that if he doesn't have something under the uth to direct the heat upwards he needs something but I wouldn't trust cork. It could dry out and get brittle and break up and possibly pose a fire hazard. Again the insulating board could be good for this and also regular tin foil. Again I use the plastic styrofoam for this. Even regular housing insulation (paperbacked with the paper against the uth) or sheetrock if you have some lying around.

 

[gothra]

Well, the 1cm cork board sitting underneath my UTH is still doing well after 8 years. I don't cook, but I think cork is also used in kitchen to withstand the heat from hot pots. I don't know, I just personally think they work fine. UTH isn't that hot, and there is also small air gap for ventilation.

p.s. I'm not saying cork board is the best thing to use, I'm just trying to give suggestions to OP.

 

[M_surinamensis]

... I was away. I have returned.

The biggest problem he's facing is his choice to use ceramic tile.

Ceramics can be composed of slightly different materials but they are all, to a greater or lesser degree, a thermal insulator. Ambient temperatures, the quality and design of the heating pad and the conductivity of the surrounding materials all play a part as well but the ceramic tiles are the most significant impediment to easy thermal manipulation. They do not absorb and transfer heat well at all.

It is why coffee mugs, casserole dishes, engine parts and the tiles on the bottom of the space shuttle are made from ceramics. It is heat-retardant. They are a material that is specifically used for the exact opposite purpose to which they are trying to be put. They aren't impossible to use, sometimes, under some circumstances, with some modifications, as Aliza has mentioned- but they are not easy to use and for some people, it simply will not work the way they need it to.

Stone tiles are a fairly good conductor, they're ideal for this kind of purpose. Vinyl "tiles" are pretty neutral, easy to work with and generally thin enough to present no real impediment to heat transfer. Throw away the ceramic tiles and use another substrate.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Well, the 1cm cork board sitting underneath my UTH is still doing well after 8 years. I don't cook, but I think cork is also used in kitchen to withstand the heat from hot pots. I don't know, I just personally think they work fine. UTH isn't that hot, and there is also small air gap for ventilation.

p.s. I'm not saying cork board is the best thing to use, I'm just trying to give suggestions to OP.

Yes I have seen cork heating pads before but it is generally a really dense compacted cork not the kind you find say used for pin up boards... THAT is the kind that would worry me. I use to have that kind stuck on the wall in my room and after about 3 years it just crumbled.

Also the porcelain/ceramic tiles should conduct some heat, the types you mentioned Semus are usually different high heat tolerant composits than what is generally used in flooring otherwise it wouldn't make agood flooring substance for our homes and when used with in floor heating elements they do transfer heat pretty well otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. You mentioned a coffee mug, well if you hold a coffee mug it is hot on the outside, just not scorching. I do agree to a point tho... honestly I think it is too thick and the uth doesn't have a high enough heat output to heat it up enough to be a suitable substrait for his tank. I love the vinyl in my tank it works great and never had a problem making temps.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Also the porcelain/ceramic tiles should conduct some heat, the types you mentioned Semus are usually different high heat tolerant composits than what is generally used in flooring otherwise it wouldn't make agood flooring substance for our homes and when used with in floor heating elements they do transfer heat pretty well otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. You mentioned a coffee mug, well if you hold a coffee mug it is hot on the outside, just not scorching. I do agree to a point tho... honestly I think it is too thick and the uth doesn't have a high enough heat output to heat it up enough to be a suitable substrait for his tank.

The ceramic floor tiles (bathroom and kitchen use mostly) will allow some heat through, eventually. They are not, as you say, a ceramic mixture designed for insulation- they're mostly the cheapest mixture that will hold together, made from fine materials so that they can be cut without shattering. Clearly not space shuttle levels of insulation, but about what a coffee mug is (also tending to be the cheapest mixtures and firing methods).

As you say, the outside of a mug can get warm- but considering the fact that the mug will be filled with a liquid (an excellent conductor that sheds heat quickly to match ambient temps) near the boiling point (190-200ish degrees) and it ends up warm to the touch, rather than cooking your hand, it sort of illustrates my point about ceramic conductivity. If I were worried about heat damage being done to the surface underneath an enclosure* I'd use ceramic tiles underneath the entire thing to protect Grandma's Hope Chest (or whatever bit of inappropriately nice furniture was being risked).

Heat pads are basically just heat tape with a little bit of insulation, some glue and a fuse that's supposed to kill the power if the temperature gets too high. They radiate heat up under normal circumstances. When that heat is blocked- like when broad panels of an insulating material are laid over it, it will dissipate where it can. Some will warm the ceramic, to the point that it can be warmed (minimal). Some will end up being moved through the material underneath the pad (the ceramic tile is a better insulator than the thin film of insulated padding built into the heat pad), some may build up and end up tripping the temperature fuse on the heat pad, rendering it inert.

I am not saying that they cannot be used... just that they are a choice for tank flooring which make temperature management more difficult, rather than assisting it. They have to be worked around, worked through and adjusted- rather than assisting with heating. An impediment, rather than a help. Stone tiles are great, they conduct heat like a champ. Ceramics are a gamble at best, the thickness, composition and way they were fired can all dramatically change how much of a pain they will end up being (from a little one, easily solved to an unyielding immovable object of annoyance, an invincible bastion of pain in the ass).

Given his difficulties... his easiest solution is to ditch the ceramic tile. Use paper towels, blank newsprint or butcher's paper for the time being and look for a more aesthetically pleasing substrate at his leisure. Natural stone works well, slate tiles that have been precut into squares or the irregularly shaped slate used for garden paths, trimmed and fitted.

*well... if I were worried about heat damage from a heating pad, I'd just find a different piece of furniture to put the enclosure on, but you know what I mean.

 

[ncbeast]

Great discussion, I am going to ditch the porcelien tiles and go with the Vinyl tiles...thanks Dog Shrink. They are thiner and once stuck down it will be really easy to clean and there will be no gaps for stuff to get in and smell and make it harder to clean.

The insulating of underneith the tank really makes sence to me. It may help disperse some of the heat accross the tank and keep the heat from escaping under the tank. I did ask Exo-Terra about adding some foil over the UTH and they said do not put anything over the UTH and make sure to use the spacers so there is plenty of air flow under the tank or the UTH could burn out. I do not really belive this if you use something that breaths as well. So since I can not get the plastic foam from Lowe's like Dog Shrink uses can I use the house wrap foam board stuff from Lowe's for under the tank? If I use this how should I do it? I have the little spacers installed on each corner which are maybe 1/2". Should I just keep these on and put the foam underneith or should I remove the spacers and let the tank rest on the foam board?

Again I really appreciate all of the help.

 

[ncbeast]

OK, first I just need to really thank "Dog Shrink" apologize for being so hard headed...if I would have listened better to him I would have saved a few bucks...but lessons learned.

First thing is I went to Lowe's to find the vinyl tile and foam insulation board. They had about 4 color choices of the 18" X 18" which I needed 17 1/2" X 17 1/2", 2 pieces...one for each side of the 40 gallon breeder tank. So my son and I picked some that was almost identical to the porcelain tile that we had and about the same price like $2.50 each. Then we went to find the insulation board and all they had was huge pieces like 4' X 8' and it was about $11 each and all I needed right now was a piece about 18" X 36". Keep in mind as well that my 11 year son is doing all of this with his money and he did not want to spend that as well. Then I remembered that I had some under the house that the previous owners had left when they insulated the crawl space doors but I could not remember how big it was. So we left Lowe's and went home and I went under the house and got the foam insulation board and it was about 5' X 5' so plenty and it must be about 15 years old and about 1/2" think with a shiny foil side and a dull foil side. Went inside and took out the porcelain tile and trimmed the vinyl and stuck it to the floor of the tank. Looks really great and you do not have to worry about stuff getting down in the edges of thicker tile to smell. Flipped the tank over and measured and cut the foam board to just fit inside the frame of the bottom of the tank. Placed the foam board inside the frame with the shiny side facing the bottom of the tank and the UTH. There was left of 1/8" protruding so with the 1/2" spacers that was installed in the corners once we placed the tank right side the foam board would have floated down and would leave a space between the foam board and UTH/Glass. So I removed the spacers and allowed the tank to rest on the foam board and the UTH is sandwiched between the glass and the foam board and the foam board covers the whole bottom not just over the UTH. Immediately you could feel with your hand that the floor was warmer than the porcelain and there was not such a sharp contrast in warm and cold when you ran your hand from the warm to the middle to the cold side. Just hope with no air flow between the UTH and the foam it will not burn up the UTH prematurely but maybe with the thermostat it will not get hot enough to burn it up.

Then we measured and cut the foam rock like background and placed it in the tank and this helps support the glass divider which is silicone (aquarium safe) to just the floor of the tank. It is very stable once the background is in. Then I ran the thermometer probe and the thermostat probe and placed them over the UTH. As soon as we looked the temp was us to 97 and my son and I were jumping and giving high fives.

For the next 24 hours we played with the thermostat to see if we could get it pretty stable around 93. This is one of those 1000 watt Zilla Temperature Controllers that we picked up for $29 and it can control up to 3 devices. This thing really fluctuates quite a bit and you just have to play with it but did not expect too much for $29. Ended up with the thermostat's dial set to about 100 and the temp ranges from about 92-97 so about a +/-5 degree swing which should be ok and we should not have to touch it again.

Another 24 hours later temp is good and no smell from the vinyl so we put in the hides and place Skippy in and so far so good. He was all over the place looking around and laying in and out of his hot hide. Another 24 hours have passed and he seems to spend a lot of time on the hot side which we thought he would spend less since it is a lot hotter than his old tank. He ate really good last night (5 large crickets) and is spending more time lying outside of the hide on the hot side. Since we got the temp up we are not using a white 25 watt bulb and just using a red cfl for viewing. There is a window in the room so he should be able to tell if it is night or day but the window is on the west of the house so not much morning light but plenty of afternoon to dusk light. The red cfl is just a dome light sitting on top of the screen for now and has to be removed when opening the tank. I would like to either mount a board on the wall behind the tank and clamp the light to that and shine down on the tank or figure out how to mount some red leds in the tank.

Now with the old 10 gallon tank we are thinking of starting a small colony of roaches and get rid of those and smelly crappy crickets. We are going to a reptile show in a couple of weeks in hopes to find two juvenile females for the other side of the tank and some roaches.

This was a fun and a little frustrating project and still need to give big props to "Dog Shrink" for all of the advise and wisdom even though it took it a while to sink in... and thanks to everyone else for their advise as well.

I will try to get some pictures tonight and post them....

Greg & AJ

 

[Dog Shrink]

HEYYYY alright :main_thumbsup: So glad that you finally got things where you need them (sort of). And btw, I'm a gal, not a him (you can see in my member spot my name is Kellee ) but it's all good. :2thumbsup:

Really happy to hear it's finally working out. I don't think you have to aorry about the uth. I have mine sandwiched as well but it is a more porous material (plastic styrofoam) than what you're using. I think if you might be that worried about the uth burning up you can put some holes in the insulating board for some air flow or just let it drop down that little bit with the spacer feet on the tank since it's reflective foil lined insulating board esp. since your temps are ranging a bit on the high end (97). Eros was also ranging between 95-99 since I got the heat on in the house now and his last 2 sheds were horrid. Too dry in the house, lack of humidity in the tank despite the fact I was misting his tank and sphagnum moss every other day with about half a small water bottle, so I installed a rheostat and now upon the advice of my breeder and a post by Designer geckos (Ray, an incredibly intelligent and helpful herp keeper) we have him between 89-91 and added a tupperware moist hide with paper towels (that I never see him in but know he's been in there because of the tracked sand from his litterbox on the paper towels) so hopefully we will have a good shed this next time around.

No props needed here dude, I was starting to get a little frustraited with you're not listening but hey, people are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless fo what they're told sometimes, but again it's all good. I'm just glad that y'all finally have the habitat you need, are happy with the results, are enjoying your leo, and he's enjoying his new environment. Just an fyi, if he's spending a lot of time out of his hot hide he is thermoregulating so the hot hide may be just a tick too hot.

Best of luck and pictures are expected as soon as you can I'd love to see the fruits of y'alls labour. Good job Greg and AJ :banana: (PS the forum needs a High Five emoticon ) Skippy... too cute...

 

[ncbeast]

HEYYYY alright :main_thumbsup: So glad that you finally got things where you need them (sort of). And btw, I'm a gal, not a him (you can see in my member spot my name is Kellee ) but it's all good. :2thumbsup:

Really happy to hear it's finally working out. I don't think you have to aorry about the uth. I have mine sandwiched as well but it is a more porous material (plastic styrofoam) than what you're using. I think if you might be that worried about the uth burning up you can put some holes in the insulating board for some air flow or just let it drop down that little bit with the spacer feet on the tank since it's reflective foil lined insulating board esp. since your temps are ranging a bit on the high end (97). Eros was also ranging between 95-99 since I got the heat on in the house now and his last 2 sheds were horrid. Too dry in the house, lack of humidity in the tank despite the fact I was misting his tank and sphagnum moss every other day with about half a small water bottle, so I installed a rheostat and now upon the advice of my breeder and a post by Designer geckos (Ray, an incredibly intelligent and helpful herp keeper) we have him between 89-91 and added a tupperware moist hide with paper towels (that I never see him in but know he's been in there because of the tracked sand from his litterbox on the paper towels) so hopefully we will have a good shed this next time around.

No props needed here dude, I was starting to get a little frustraited with you're not listening but hey, people are gonna do what they're gonna do regardless fo what they're told sometimes, but again it's all good. I'm just glad that y'all finally have the habitat you need, are happy with the results, are enjoying your leo, and he's enjoying his new environment. Just an fyi, if he's spending a lot of time out of his hot hide he is thermoregulating so the hot hide may be just a tick too hot.

Best of luck and pictures are expected as soon as you can I'd love to see the fruits of y'alls labour. Good job Greg and AJ :banana: (PS the forum needs a High Five emoticon ) Skippy... too cute...

Thought you might be a be a chick, i did see your profile pic and was wondering and tried not to use "him/her or he/she" but I guess one got through. It is nice to meet you Kellee!!

Gotcha on the temp and will turn it down a tick and with this thermostat will probably have a range from 86-91 since it looks like it works with +/- 5.

Will try to get some pictures posted tonight...

Thanks again

 

[Dog Shrink]

Thanks... I wonder if it's unusual for a thermostat to have such a high degree of variability in it's range. It sounds kinda curious to me. You would think that they would be more accurate since that size of a variable +/- 5 degrees really could affect the animal's well being.

Also, Kinda wondering how you could wonder after seeing a profile pic if I was a him or a her *wonders if I look like a masculine her or a feminine he now * niece meeting you too and really looking forward to the pix.

 

[ncbeast]

Thanks... I wonder if it's unusual for a thermostat to have such a high degree of variability in it's range. It sounds kinda curious to me. You would think that they would be more accurate since that size of a variable +/- 5 degrees really could affect the animal's well being.

Also, Kinda wondering how you could wonder after seeing a profile pic if I was a him or a her *wonders if I look like a masculine her or a feminine he now * niece meeting you too and really looking forward to the pix.

Yeah, I thought about emailing Zilla and asking them because I thought it would be less as well but I could not find any reviews that mentioned the varience.

Ha, ha about your profile pic. I belong to several different forums and many guys put pin-up girls and models as their profile pic so just thought you might be one of those...