Professionally Confused

[Azazel]

Hi, I'm planning to be a breeder who keeps, breeds, markets and sells my produce of leopard geckos (classic&new morphs) starting this year, locally and internationally. I have a permanent job yet I want to pursue this to keep myself sane and to support this obsession that we called hobby. I was keeping, breeding and trading few herps for the past 3 years before. But mainly focusing on snakes and varanids, which as you all know are not prolific breeders as leopard geckos. That's how I gain momentum to acquire more and more animals, particularly pythons and varanids until my house seems like a reptile petting zoo. Now, I have stopped fooling around with CITES animals due to legality issue and looking forward to focusing on leopard geckos. Apart from leopard geckos, I will try to move up and increase my collection from leopard to fat tails to knob tails to asia cave etc.

Anyway, what are your comments in this matter if I decided to pursue this venture professionally? Frankly, I'm also sick of doing 9-5 hours job which I dislike (not hate). I would rather spend my time 247 with herps (in this case geckos).

Let me know your views because every bit would help greatly in my decision making.

Thanks

 

[Geck-O]

A little off topic but do you ship to Malaysia? I have a friend who wants to buy a leo but cant find a nice looking one. There are only high yellows and normals here. So far in Malaysia, I have only seen 2 albinos and 2 hypo tangs but they don't look very healthy. Unfortunately, my friend can't get anoter gecko for a while. He also told me that he was interested in buying a hypo tang.

 

[Azazel]

Little of topic but NO I do not ship to Malaysia. That's because I am a Malaysian. It would be just plain crazy to export to my own country LOL!

Just an advice, if you only desire one or two leopard geckos that may cost not that much, it would be wiser to just buy them locally rather than to import them. This is because the shipping cost alone would probably cost 10 times more than the cost of the gecko alone.

 

[acpart]

I'm assuming from your last post that you are not only Malaysian, but that you live in Malaysia. In that case, it seems as if you have your first potential customer. The good thing about leopard gecko breeding is that you don't have to start out by "opening a business". It's best to start with a small group, produce a small number of babies and see if they sell. It is important to network and publicize what you have but not to flood a possible new market from the beginning. Many breeders on this forum will tell you that it is very difficult to make this a profitable business, that breeding businesses that are profitable work out to very low hourly wage, and that people whose prime goal is to make money (I'm not suggesting this is true of you necessarily) will probably be disappointed. If you start small, you will have your best chance of success and can "grow into" the business and find out if it's really possible for you.

Aliza

 

[Azazel]

My intention is to not open a business first because from my knowledge and experience, I could cut back on the extra expenses such as rent, bills or even salary. From my observation, those are things that put pressure on a business, especially when you are desperate in your sales.

I have only 19 heads at the moment. But I'm expecting a shipment of another 20+ heads to arrive anytime this month from USA. They will be my breeders. There's a big chance I will be doing this alone though. I think unlike cats or dogs, a small fleet of leopard geckos could be managed by only an individual, right?

Over the last few months, after much browsing and observation, it seems that leopard gecko morphs can sell quite fast compared to other reptiles such as pythons with the same use of marketing tools. This may be due to various reasons such as their characters, non-CITES status or even affordability. The newest retic morph may cost up to 5 figure USD but I have not seen any new leopard gecko morphs cost as much...yet.

As a newbie, do I or do I not make any sense?

Thanks for comments.

 

[acpart]

A few things to consider:
I spend about 1 1/2 hours per feeding night with my current collection which consists of 21 leopard geckos, 1 bearded dragon and 8 geckos of other species. Larger scale breeders can give you a sense of how much time they spend caring for their collections. You also have to consider the cost of feeders. I breed my own mealworms, but get 1500 crickets in the mail about every 2 weeks at the cost of approx. $30 per shipment. Do you have the living space and caging to house all the babies? It's true that there is less overhead for a business that is home based and that you start doing in your extra time, but you are also producing a living creature that you may have only a theoretical market for at this time. If one is producing non-living objects, for example, and they don't sell, there is always the possibility to take them apart, sell as scrap, or, at worst, throw them away. This is not a possibility with a living product. It's good, though, to think this out and share your thoughts.

Aliza

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I would love to chime in on this topic due to well i will be letting my Leo's get it on soon. When looking at the market and trying to make a stand point of you can off load geckos quickly it's correct and incorrect all at the same time.

Mainly the "big" breeders that are on this site have the room to maintain the animals they don't sell right away as well as the hold backs. Plus you have to figure cost of producing leo's. Taking 2 females that will in theroy can produce 16 eggs, that would bring you to 32 new mouths to feed. But you run into well now instead of getting 1/2 inch crix you need to get pin heads. so that's an additional order of a different size of feeder.

True you can save money by starting a colony of feeder insects but then do you not only have the room to keep your feeders do you have room to reproduce your feeders.

Also the market is kinda slow right now, everyone is trying to save money due to the stock market is doing pretty bad. Since there will only be a single person taking on the duties of keeping the animals do you feel that the pinch of the economy will not effect the care the leos get. There are plenty of breeders out there that are cutting back on their production of leos. Either being due to getting a stronger blood line or just cutting out a line totally due to poss money issues, space issues.

Just some food for thought. If you feel as if you can do this then by all means do it. Just think about some of the other things that go along with having a larger number of animals.

 

[Azazel]

A few things to consider:
I spend about 1 1/2 hours per feeding night with my current collection which consists of 21 leopard geckos, 1 bearded dragon and 8 geckos of other species. Larger scale breeders can give you a sense of how much time they spend caring for their collections. You also have to consider the cost of feeders. I breed my own mealworms, but get 1500 crickets in the mail about every 2 weeks at the cost of approx. $30 per shipment. Do you have the living space and caging to house all the babies? It's true that there is less overhead for a business that is home based and that you start doing in your extra time, but you are also producing a living creature that you may have only a theoretical market for at this time. If one is producing non-living objects, for example, and they don't sell, there is always the possibility to take them apart, sell as scrap, or, at worst, throw them away. This is not a possibility with a living product. It's good, though, to think this out and share your thoughts.

Aliza

True on what you said on the hours spent. I too did (and still doing) some fair share of animal maintenance such as cleaning or playing with poops (yeah I do that especially with chelonians to check for worms). But one thing I noticed, eventhough geckos in theory seem to be more demanding than other reptiles (for instance snakes) such as daily feeding or every other day, I have found out that the care, money and efforts seems to be much less than when I was keeping other animals such as pythons or varanids. Even space constraint is not there anymore. Now I am only using a room and have another 2 rooms, 1 living area (upstairs) and a backyard still vacant. It wasn't like this before. I hardly get any rest last time with my job and hobby. Let alone to spend precious time with my family. But now it's different. The best part is that when food is concerned, crickets, mealworms or even superworms are abundance and very cheap compared to mice, rats or rabbits. Infact, I don't even have to waste my time to care for feeders anymore since I can just buy them in bulk. They are way way cheaper too. Well that's the scenario here. I'm sure it's different in the States.

 

[Azazel]

I would love to chime in on this topic due to well i will be letting my Leo's get it on soon. When looking at the market and trying to make a stand point of you can off load geckos quickly it's correct and incorrect all at the same time.

Mainly the "big" breeders that are on this site have the room to maintain the animals they don't sell right away as well as the hold backs. Plus you have to figure cost of producing leo's. Taking 2 females that will in theroy can produce 16 eggs, that would bring you to 32 new mouths to feed. But you run into well now instead of getting 1/2 inch crix you need to get pin heads. so that's an additional order of a different size of feeder.

True you can save money by starting a colony of feeder insects but then do you not only have the room to keep your feeders do you have room to reproduce your feeders.

Also the market is kinda slow right now, everyone is trying to save money due to the stock market is doing pretty bad. Since there will only be a single person taking on the duties of keeping the animals do you feel that the pinch of the economy will not effect the care the leos get. There are plenty of breeders out there that are cutting back on their production of leos. Either being due to getting a stronger blood line or just cutting out a line totally due to poss money issues, space issues.

Just some food for thought. If you feel as if you can do this then by all means do it. Just think about some of the other things that go along with having a larger number of animals.

You have an interesting point there. Considering the stock market crashes even further, would that really affect the industry like it did to other mainstream business? I always thought that this business is just like wine or paintings. No?

One more thing I noticed about this is that there's some sort of a weird obsession going on when herps for collection are concerned. Just like drugs. Or is it just me

 

[Lizard Lair]

One more thing I noticed about this is that there's some sort of a weird obsession going on when herps for collection are concerned. Just like drugs. Or is it just me

That's funny. You are absolutely correct! Leopard Geckos are very, very addicting. You think you have your dream collection and then something new comes along that you just HAVE to have!

 

[rubym]

You also have to factor in the time that it takes to take care of your feeder insects. We raise our own mealies, supers, silkies and roaches and they take quite a bit of time to maintain. I sell mealies and supers to one of our local mom and pop pet stores and that covers the cost of my crickets ( she orders 1000 every 2 weeks for me). I own a daycare and one of my daycare grand parents is an organic farmer so I am lucky enough to get my bran meal ( organic) and my vegtables at no cost but you have to factor in the amount it cost to feed your feeders also. I don't think that most small time breeders ever make enough off of their leos to make it a sole source of income.

 

[Lizard Lair]

It's very true what the others are saying about the cost of raising a lot of geckos. Even if your feeders are cheap, once you get babies you will be going through a LOT of bugs. It really is important to feed your feeders an excellent diet - which is not cheap. By the time you factor in the time and money for feeding and cleaning up after your geckos, feeding and cleaning up after your feeders, higher power bills, cost of caging & racks, advertising (takes a lot of time - fast growing babies need pictures re-taken frequently) and customer support you are lucky if you make enough profit to re-invest back into your business for more geckos. And you really need to love these geckos (how could anybody not?) because that is where you will be spending most all of your time. And no matter how happy you are with your current breeding colony it seems there is always another extremely cool gecko or new morph that you just have to have And if you want it to be your business, and not your hobby, then you probably would have to have that exciting new gecko. LOL It doesn't stop. But if you love geckos, and like people your results can be very, very satisfying, at the minimum emotionally if not financially.

 

[Gregg M]

Azazel,
I breed leopard geckos, Varanids, and assorted venomous reptiles... Not sure why you would want to give up the varanids... They are very prolific... I have gotten 26 good eggs from one female V. tristis alone this past year... Not sure what species you are/were breeding but you almost cant go wrong with varanids as long as you have the space...

It's very true what the others are saying about the cost of raising a lot of geckos. Even if your feeders are cheap, once you get babies you will be going through a LOT of bugs. It really is important to feed your feeders an excellent diet - which is not cheap.

I have to disagree here... Breed your own feeders and the food for you animals is not only cheap but free... Even commercial gutloads are not expensive and they do go a long way... The best thing to do is make your own gutload... It is very cheap to make it your self...

I will say this however....
This is not a hard hobby to maintain but it is a hard buisiness to get into... Every one and their grandmother is breeding leos these days so it may be hard to sell what you produce... The only animals that sell well are top notch examples of their morphs... Anyone can put two leos together and breed them... The majority of "breeders" cant make enough money to even half support their hobby, nevermind making a living...

 

[Azazel]

That's funny. You are absolutely correct! Leopard Geckos are very, very addicting. You think you have your dream collection and then something new comes along that you just HAVE to have!

I think that would apply to any herps one choose to like.

I guess in order to really know for sure, I have to walk the talk. Correct?

I breed leopard geckos, Varanids, and assorted venomous reptiles... Not sure why you would want to give up the varanids... They are very prolific... I have gotten 26 good eggs from one female V. tristis alone this past year... Not sure what species you are/were breeding but you almost cant go wrong with varanids as long as you have the space...

I think I quit varanids due to reasons below:

Eventhough Malaysia is a CITES member, we have our own local law known as the Wildlife Protection Act (WPA). This act comprises only some of the CITES animals listed (chelonians excluded). The Act also divided animals into three appendices i.e. I, II and III. In WPA, a keeper may only hunt, kill, keep or breed animals that belong in Appendix II or III. Appendix I is a big NO NO. However, the appendices do not jive 100% with CITES. As you may have well known, there are 4 identified species of varanids in Malaysia i.e. V. salvator, V. dumerilii, V, rudicollis and V. nebulosus.

If you check with CITES appendices, you will find that there are three (3) species listed to Appendix II while one (1) listed to Appendix I of CITES. But in WPA, only V. salvator belong to Appendix II while the rest are in Appendix I of the Act. While V. salvator can be traded, hunted, kept and bred legally with a certain permit system, the rest are not.

Now, I was working with a few monitor species, with a concentration of varanids from the subgenus Empagusia. First reason would be because I like their traits. Second would be they seemed to be more in demand compared to the normal looking salvators. Third reason would be people here do not consider them as a delicacy due to smaller size, less and smellier meat compared to salvators. Fourth reason would be because I like them. So, everytime I sell, people will definitely know I was selling them for pets and not for food. It's a different scenario with salvators. And I am not a butcher haha. But because Empagusia belongs to Appendix I of WPA, I can't keep, trade, sell or export whatever I managed to produce. Why? Because the law says so. The best part is that, if you know where to look, they are everywhere (apart from being prolific breeders, they are also prolific). Some even became road burgers.

And in order to keep, breed, trade or export WPA/CITES animals in Malaysia, one need to have a legitimate business. A legit business in this context would be to have a proper Private Limited company (with directors and shareholders), pay annual fees, have a premise that fit (a house is excluded) with rents and bills etc. Basically it takes a whole lot more money. And that haven't include the animals cost yet. In Malaysia, one can't not do all this as a hobbyist and operate from home, even if the source of the animals were legal. And I am not willing to spend those money because of the nature of this hobby. Those who have been in this hobby long would know that "there's no real money in this hobby" i.e. it's not a pyramid scheme whereby people can get rich overnight (before they go bust haha). The best achievements I had so far were increasing the amount of animals I have and maintaining them. I have never gotten any real money. I bet a lot of you have other permanent jobs and benefits as well, while concentrating and maintaining this hobby...just like me.

Now, I love the hobby. But I am not willing to go to jail for it.

With non-CITES/WPA animals, it's an entirely different ball game. Almost 100% of the things I stated above do not apply.

I think that's my reason.

Just for info:

Non-CITES animals are governed by the Department of Veterinary Services of Malaysia (leopard geckos included).

CITES animals are governed by Department of Wildlife & National Parks of Malaysia aka Per.hilitan. Those who have read "The Lizard King" by Bryan Christy would have heard and known what they have done in the past (I could include present and future but I would be in a very hot soup soon after that LOL!).

Both are different entities with different roles, rules and regulation.

Last, in terms of integrity, trustworthiness (word?) and expertise, I would rather die than report regularly to the latter.

I typed too much. I should stop.

 

[Azazel]

It's been 10 months since I started this thread and I have only one comment i.e. I love keeping, breeding and selling them.