Question about Imperfect Hatchlings.

[waixingren]

Hi. I am wondering what you folks would do in this situation.

The following clutchmates were laid by a 7 year old female who laid 3 infertile clutches this year, these two babies are the only survivors and were the final clutch of the season. They were incubated at 86-88º for 45 days. I have hatched 7 babies from this incubator and the same father with no issues. The mother always had a bowl of calcium.

Baby 1 has a partially webbed rear right leg but seems to walk around smoothly. The eyelid issue is the worst for this one.

Baby 2(unlabeled in the pics) has a large gullet which appears to be full of a clear liquid. She has no webbed limbs. She is a bit wobbly on her feet sometimes but today is her first day out of the tiny egg. She is very small as you can see. She vocalizes strongly for her size and is active.

Both geckos will on occasion open their mouth and make a click sound. Also both of them are very shiny. My other 7 hatchlings did not show this iridescence, you can clearly see green shining in some shots.

Their eyelids look swollen to me but are clearly kinked up a little bit too. Do you suppose the swelling will diminish? I'm not sure what to do with these two. Would you suggest letting them live? Obviously they will have to be pets only but I don't want them to live in misery.

 

[LZRDGRL]

James Lamantia had a hatchling with a fluid sack under its chin. I purchased this photo from him early this year or so. Never knew whether his hatchling survived (must have missed it, or there wasn't a follow-up).

Baby 2 looks like it has strange proportions. Maybe this will go away when the liquid vanishes?? James's hatchling's fluid sack disappeared and then re-appeared. The eyelid-creases don't look so bad; the swelling does. If that goes away, and the babies can still close their eyes, that part is probably okay.

The "webbing" might be extra skin. I got a Mack Snow Tremper female for free once that had extra skin; it just looked very wrinkly on the stomach and under the chin. It's a big fat momma now and doing fine, and none of her offspring had extra skin. It didn't have those "frog-like" legs, though.

If they were mine, I would probably cull them (sorry to say so), because I would worry about internal damage (especially if they walk around a bit wobbly), and also I couldn't breed them and don't need any more pets than I already have, due to time and space constraints; especially not special-need babies that might need daily care and eye drops, etc.

In the end, it's up to you. Perhaps the mother was too old; I read they can breed until they're 8 years old, but I think it's time to retire this dame. Sorry you have to deal with this!

Chrissy

 

[acpart]

You asked what I would do, so I'll tell you my personal perspective:
I would care for them and see if they have the ability to survive comfortably. I would cull them if they seem unable to eat and thrive or in obvious pain. I have had success with geckos that initially seemed to have some eyelid problems or slight swelling and they have either overcome these problems (i.e. problems disappeared) or been able to survive with them. I had one hatchling a number of years ago that had fluid throughout its body that did not survive.

As you will find out, others will have a different opinion; this is mine.

Aliza

 

[waixingren]

Thanks you both for replies.

The swelling has gone down for both geckos but they both sit with their eyes almost fully closed now. Baby 1 just shed. They both seem to be indifferent to light at the moment. Im keeping their tub moist. The fluid sack on baby 2 has dissipated.

They seem to be improving so I'm going to continue caring for them another few days.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The eyelid deformities are not severe. This is one of the most common birth defects in leopard geckos, and I would only cull if the gecko had no eyelids whatsoever and could not close it's eyes. When it's this severe, the eyes will dry up and the gecko will go blind.

I have had a couple of hatchlings with large fluid-filled throats and necks, and unfortunately they did not survive. If this fluid goes away, it will leave the neck skin quite loose and wrinkly... again this is usually not a quality of life issue.

I also had a hatchling with a webbed limb, and the vet simply snipped the skin and it healed up nicely and the little one could walk normally.

Only you can decide if the babies should be culled. I personally only cull babies that have severe deformities and/or quality of life issues. The rest grow into beautiful pets for someone who has a soft spot in their hearts for physically imperfect creatures.

 

[artes]

I agree with Marcia. As long as its not quality of life, there are suckers out there (like me) who fall completely in love with imperfect babies and give them a great life. So keep them for now - if they eat on their own and get past the wobbley stage (they are still young, so I wouldn't worry yet - I wobbled when I was young too), then I would assume they're fine.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I would like to clarify a little. I have a constant struggle between Marcia the animal lover and Marcia the breeder. It's a tough call to tell if a defect is genetic for most hobbyists and keepers, but if I thought a problem was definitely a genetic issue I might cull the babies rather than gamble on whether whoever gets them would breed them or not. It's one of those ethical questions that only individuals can answer for themselves.

 

[BrightReptiles]

Exactly how I feel. I have decided if and when defects arrive, they will be culled. I hate seeing posts from people trying to breed different albinos and geckos with major deformities. Seeing how many people post about doing it here, I'm scared to know how many do it and don't come tell us forum goers. I don't want to even possibly contribute to someone breeding things that shouldn't be bred. That is my reason for deciding "if its not right, its not alive."

I know it is harsh to put it that way, but its all I can do outside of trying to educate people who are getting into the hobby that may help the future of Leo genetics.

 

[PhoenixCoconut]

Exactly how I feel. I have decided if and when defects arrive, they will be culled. I hate seeing posts from people trying to breed different albinos and geckos with major deformities. Seeing how many people post about doing it here, I'm scared to know how many do it and don't come tell us forum goers. I don't want to even possibly contribute to someone breeding things that shouldn't be bred. That is my reason for deciding "if its not right, its not alive."

I know it is harsh to put it that way, but its all I can do outside of trying to educate people who are getting into the hobby that may help the future of Leo genetics.

I would not cull it I would do what LZRDGRL does she has an adoption center
http://lzrdgrl.com/Adoption.aspx