Sand Complication

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Here is a very graphic example of what 'digestible' calcium sand does to the intestines of a leopard gecko: http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/reptile/PhotoAlbum181.html

 

[KiKi]

very graphic and i dont use sand for that reason only reptile carpet.

 

[Nastynotch]

Alot of people dont like reptilecarpet,newspaper, paper towel because its not very nice to look at in a tank. alot of people what to set up a tank with a nice looking pet for display. which is totally ok. Thus, they use sand, walnut, etc. so it looks nice and more natural.

ive never seen compaction myself, or know anyone whos had a herp with compactions. I really think its something more chronic than it seems. and slightly over worried about.

different breeders use different things. i guess its what you want to risk.

 

[GoGo]

I just want to say here walnut is even worse and if i ever catch a friend of mine using it i will steal their geckos in the middle of the night to save them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Crushed walnut shells are very sharp, and can cause damage to the intestines of the geckos that ingest it. If having a nice decorative display tank full of calcium-sand is more important than risking your gecko's health (and even their life), then ceramic tile and/or slate is the best (and safest) option. I have seen some very cool set-ups with those as substrate.

 

[SpOuK-3-]

why? everywhere i go i saw baby and adult gecko with that kind of hash nuts and the gecko are fine ... I ask three places and they told me calci-sand is bad but hash nuts is natural and safe for baby ..... Thats why I change the sand to this ... Even a friend of mine is using this with the baby and they are in good shape .... maybe some incident append but ...

 

[SpOuK-3-]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing ... mine is like sand ... but a bit bigger than sand ... It's not sharp at all

 

[Led Zep]

But won't some be stuck on it?

 

[Nastynotch]

Crushed walnut shells are very sharp, and can cause damage to the intestines of the geckos that ingest it. If having a nice decorative display tank full of calcium-sand is more important than risking your gecko's health (and even their life), then ceramic tile and/or slate is the best (and safest) option. I have seen some very cool set-ups with those as substrate.

I use Tile For my big 45 gallon tank w/ my bearded dragon.

then sand (formerly walnut) with my whitespotted gecko's and cresties.
The walnut ive used is extremely soft, and of a fine grain. Let alone the fact that ive never seen my geckos consume any. Now i use calsand.

I dont recommend calsand for younger geckos. For one we all know little geckos are curious and try almost anything. two there alot younger and the calcium sand will clob (yes i said clob)...thus is could cause compaction.
But i really think that adult geckos have alot more common sense as people do when they grow older. and if they do consume calcium sand its more proper to digest.

Like i said before, If compact is a big deal..its more chronic if anything. your not going to kill your leo if you set him in walnut sub. for a night or two.

 

[BalloonzForU]

The big sand debate.....AGAIN!

I personally will not use sand especially calci sand, walnut or any other loose substrate. I don't care what is on the packaging. That's not to say that those of you that have used play sand with success with adult leos are in the wrong. It's just a smaller risk, but still not a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[BalloonzForU]

Like i said before, If compact is a big deal..its more chronic if anything. your not going to kill your leo if you set him in walnut sub. for a night or two.

Where do you get impaction is cronic from?

 

[Kotsay1414]

Personally I've used sand for 10 years, ever since I got my two adult Leopard Geckos when they were juveniles. I’ve never had any problems; their poops have been normal.

I don’t mean to cause a stir, but is there any stats for the number of Leo’s that get impaction?

 

[Nastynotch]

I don’t mean to cause a stir, but is there any stats for the number of Leo’s that get impaction?

Thats what i need!

 

[Nastynotch]

Where do you get impaction is cronic from?

Im trying to say that if you keep your leo in walnut or sand sub. for a few days or weeks hes not going to bind up and die.

All of the stories ive read about leos becoming compacted with sand or shells have stated its a condition that occurs over a long period of time. Its not like they get in the sand and decide its a good replacement for crickets.

I think we forget that our leos or beardies still have natural behaviors even though they've been captively born for the last 10 generations. they were all from sandy, rocky habbitats.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

But i really think that adult geckos have alot more common sense as people do when they grow older. and if they do consume calcium sand its more proper to digest.

Nathan, I usually do not get into substrate debates, but you are misinformed about calcium carbonate sand for leopard geckos. While calci-sand may be appropriate for some reptiles, leopard geckos have a very short digestive system, and the calci-sand cannot dissolve completely in their GI system. Instead, it gets sticky and clumps together, and over time the intestines become impacted with the material. Death by intestinal impaction is a very violent and excruciating death.

Secondly, calci-sand is made of Calcium Carbonate... which is the same material that calcium powder is made of, only the powder form is so fine it is easily digestible. But, calcium carbonate is the same thing that Rolaids are made of. Rolaids reduce gastric acids. When the geckos strike at food prey, they naturally ingest the sand, and their entire digestive system can get full of it. So, not only are the intestines being blocked by a sticky calcium mass, but the gecko's digestive system cannot function properly with the reduced gastric juices. This means that it cannot digest it's food completely, which further complicates intestinal blockage.

Just because you see geckos on calcium sand that "look OK" does not mean that they are not at risk of developing impacted bowels. It means they are still alive, that's all.

 

[BalloonzForU]

Well said Marcia!

 

[Nastynotch]

Nathan, I usually do not get into substrate debates, but you are misinformed about calcium carbonate sand for leopard geckos. While calci-sand may be appropriate for some reptiles, leopard geckos have a very short digestive system, and the calci-sand cannot dissolve completely in their GI system. Instead, it gets sticky and clumps together, and over time the intestines become impacted with the material. Death by intestinal impaction is a very violent and excruciating death.

Secondly, calci-sand is made of Calcium Carbonate... which is the same material that calcium powder is made of, only the powder form is so fine it is easily digestible. But, calcium carbonate is the same thing that Rolaids are made of. Rolaids reduce gastric acids. When the geckos strike at food prey, they naturally ingest the sand, and their entire digestive system can get full of it. So, not only are the intestines being blocked by a sticky calcium mass, but the gecko's digestive system cannot function properly with the reduced gastric juices. This means that it cannot digest it's food completely, which further complicates intestinal blockage.

Just because you see geckos on calcium sand that "look OK" does not mean that they are not at risk of developing impacted bowels. It means they are still alive, that's all.

I understand there is a risk, and i understand this is the never ending battle. And i hope you dont think Im stepping on your toes. But but the package says its easy to digest. And biologically it is. I dont think you understand the word Calcium Carbonate.

To get the fine 'sand' figure out of the calcium they use you have to step beyond just calcium. Ca-(C4/H6/NO4)-R-(C/O/OH) molecularly that gives you 'sand' in a carboxyl group. Carboxyls are polar-covalent. If anything on a molecular scale the sand is polar and soluble. so it 'should' scientifically be digestable.
covalent bond is broken by gastric acid. comes out the other end.
gastric acid is a amino acid. acting as a enzyme it breaks down the carbon and the calcium in the sand.

look, everything and everything happends. Sure leos can go and intake spoons and spoons of sand over time. which ofcourse groups together (like when you walk on the beach). And its a risk that can possably happen. Im just trying to say that its not as likely as we all think. and to a degree it is safe.

Its like saying theres a good chance that ill walk out of my door and get hit by a flying truck. The possablity is there, but does that keep me from walking out my front door everymorning?

marcia- you've done this years and years and years more than i have. you've seen everything and anything im sure. And i completely respect you for that. All i want to prove is that cal-sand isnt as bad as it seems. Maybe we dont have to point impaction to these petstore beddings. These people owning companys that create reptile sand, etc. may know just asmuch as you do.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

To get the fine 'sand' figure out of the calcium they use you have to step beyond just calcium. Ca-(C4/H6/NO4)-R-(C/O/OH) molecularly that gives you 'sand' in a carboxyl group. Carboxyls are polar-covalent. If anything on a molecular scale the sand is polar and soluble. so it 'should' scientifically be digestable.
covalent bond is broken by gastric acid. comes out the other end.
gastric acid is a amino acid. acting as a enzyme it breaks down the carbon and the calcium in the sand.

Nathan, I got my BS from San Jose State University in Materials Science, and my MS from Berkeley in Organic Chemistry. I have been breeding geckos almost as long as you have been alive! I have conducted MANY experiments with Calcium Carbonate and it's solubility properties when 'dissolved' in acid AND base. Here is a case study:

"I took 1g samples of calcium carbonate 'sand' and tried to dissolve them in varying concentrations of base and acid. I understand that a reptile's ability to digest food depends on many factors including temperature, but this test was just designed to give me an idea of what would happen. A lizard's stomach is an acid about pH 3 at a high concentration. Their intestines are basic at a high concentration about pH 9. In the lab I used 1M and 2M Hydrochloric Acid pH 1, tap and deionized water pH 7, and 1M and 2M Sodium Hydroxide pH 14. I added 1g of substrate to 10 mls solution. The samples were then set in a 70°F constant temperature room for 4 days. I then carefully removed the liquid and dried it. I recorded the weight of the remaining material (what had been dissolved in the solution).

Table 1
Concentration/ pH/ % absorbed
2 M HCl 1 17.47%
2 M HCl 1 19.31%
1 M HCl 1 12.29%
1 M HCl 1 18.79%
Tap water 7 3.28%
Tap water 7 2.29%
Deionized water 7 3.14%
Deionized water 7 2.92%
1 M NaOH 14 14.65%
1 M NaOH 14 12.71%
2 M NaOH 14 36.22%

Overall, the study showed that the calcium carbonate substrates do not dissolve very well in any of the solutions that I made. The best I got was 36% with the 2M basic solution. Still, that is only 1/3rd of what actually has been ingested by the animal that is easily able to pass through the system. For me, that was not good enough. These particles are about 2X larger than normal sand, which has also been known to cause impactions under certain conditions.

When I continued my investigation a little further to see if anyone else had encountered problems with these substrates, I found that most breeders do not use these materials. According to Dr. Frederic L. Frye, PH.D, DVM. etc., "Calcium sand acts as an antacid which neutralizes stomach acids, adversely effecting digestion".

You are DEAD wrong about using calci-sand for your leopard geckos.

 

[KiKi]

i agree with marcia sand is very bad. tile paper towels or reptile carpet is best. companys that produce these sand products are just ther to make money

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I belive the companies that formulate and produce these products have done LOTS of testing in their labs, and their statements that they are 'safe' are generally true as a rule. They may be safe for other lizards, but they are NOT safe for Leopard Geckos.