Sand

[katie_]

So ovbiously butcher paper, tile, and similar are the safest route to go to avoid impaction.

Now I have recently heard some debate wether or not sand is a good thing for geckos digestion. Like a bird eating gravel, the sand can help grind up the rough fibres from eating insects. Small amounts of sand are ingested when they catch prey in the wild, and this is beneficial.

I was looking at 'care sheet' a gecko breeder had at a recently expo, and he refused to offer any sort of health guarantee unless his leopard geckos were on sand ONLY.

What are your thoughts?

(I'm not talking about the thick calci-sand, just regular fine sand)

 

[LeopardShade]

Sand can and has been used with various knowledgeable breeders and hobbyists that know exactly what they're doing and have had lots of experience. This doesn't mean that it should be used with newbies to leopard geckos and beginners getting their first reptile, though.

Any type of loose substrate, no matter how long the gecko has been on it or how well it's doing, is always going to pose a risk (whether it'd be big or small) of impaction. It is a serious, debilitating, and lethal health problem, and sadly, is probably the most preventable cause of death in leopard geckos. There have been autopsies of leopard geckos where the determined cause of death was indeed a belly full of sand.

Sure, sand might be aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but why risk the potentially fatal condition your gecko might develop over time using it? Slate tiles are beautiful, cheap, and 100% impaction free. I stick to good ol' paper towel, though. Cheap, easy to clean, and easy to replace.

Small amounts of sand are ingested when they catch prey in the wild

Leopard geckos do not live on sand in the wild, they live on solid clay rock substrates (correct me if I'm wrong someone)

 

[katie_]

Sand can and has been used with various knowledgeable breeders and hobbyists that know exactly what they're doing and have had lots of experience. This doesn't mean that it should be used with newbies to leopard geckos and beginners getting their first reptile, though.

Any type of loose substrate, no matter how long the gecko has been on it or how well it's doing, is always going to pose a risk (whether it'd be big or small) of impaction. It is a serious, debilitating, and lethal health problem, and sadly, is probably the most preventable cause of death in leopard geckos. There have been autopsies of leopard geckos where the determined cause of death was indeed a belly full of sand.

Sure, sand might be aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but why risk the potentially fatal condition your gecko might develop over time using it? Slate tiles are beautiful, cheap, and 100% impaction free. I stick to good ol' paper towel, though. Cheap, easy to clean, and easy to replace.



Leopard geckos do not live on sand in the wild, they live on solid clay rock substrates (correct me if I'm wrong someone)

No they dont live on a pure sand bed, but in places like Pakistan - even in the rocky mountains, there is a fair bit of sand.

 

[katie_]

I'm just saying it makes complete sense to me that they would do this, either unintentionally or on purpose - like a bird. I was just wondering if anyone else has heard anything like this. I know they dont have a crop like a bird, but I wonder if there digestion is similar, since reptiles and birds are very alike.

 

[katie_]

Theres very little leopard gecko anatomy information on the internet

 

[Dimidiata]

Heres the thing, their not birds. Eating stones to break fibers and grind food is primarily a herbivorous tactic. Plants can be tougher to break down, certain species of bird will ingest gravel to help grind it. They don't eat it every time they eat nor do the live on it. Geckos who live on sand are capable of getting a mouth full every time they grab a insect or just lick the ground as they have a weird tendency to try -_-. in the wild their may be a bit of sand on the stones and such but its more dust film then 1-2" thick all over.

 

[katie_]

Heres the thing, their not birds. Eating stones to break fibers and grind food is primarily a herbivorous tactic. Plants can be tougher to break down, certain species of bird will ingest gravel to help grind it. They don't eat it every time they eat nor do the live on it. Geckos who live on sand are capable of getting a mouth full every time they grab a insect or just lick the ground as they have a weird tendency to try -_-. in the wild their may be a bit of sand on the stones and such but its more dust film then 1-2" thick all over.

Right, I'm aware they do not live on inches of sand in the wild. Birds do however eat stones and they are insectivors (like a gecko). I'm more or so asking people who have extensive knowledge in gecko anatomy, as I am aware that geckos are not birds.

Herbivors tend to chew cud, reguritated from the first stomach. Very different.

What I'm asking is not is it a great idea to place a leopard gecko on pure sand, but if its beneificial to incorporate some to its environment.

 

[katie_]

I came on this forum to ask a question and get an educted answer. I didnt start this thread to be patronized.

 

[Dimidiata]

I didn't mean to patronize, simply offered the advice and insight that i had. I was unaware at the time that it would be insufficient, my greatest apologies. If it helps any, i belive we would have to know the type of sand found in the native range of the animal so we can know what its base is and shape/size of the partical if we were going to attempt to use it in the tanks for just having here and there.(I dont mean that we need that exact sand, just somthing similar).

 

[grboxa]

:main_huh:. You asked for opinions/thoughts, and you got them. I don't think anyone here is trying to patronize you, I think your over reading and jumping the gun. All the replies make sense and I agree. Now for my opinion, I wouldn't take a chance even if others have successfully used it without problems. If sand is being used I would hope the leo's would be put in a separate tank for feeding....slate tile looks better than sand in my opinon anyways:main_thumbsup:

 

[RampantReptiles]

To make a comparison between bird digestion and leopard gecko digestion seems incorrect. Leopard geckos do not have crops or gizzards. Their digestion is more like that of snakes and other reptiles. Slow, not fast like birds.

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/afspoultry-files/pubs/Anatomy_Digestive.pdf

Not all birds swallow stones. And those that do either pass or regurgitate the stones once they are no longer of use. The problem with leopard geckos is that they sometimes accumulate sand in their digestive system that they cannot pass, which leads to impaction.

Here is some gruesome pics of the anatomy
http://www.geckophilippines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=127

 

[RampantReptiles]

I dont think if I swallowed a bunch of stones that it would help with digestion. More than likely give me a belly ache and a very uncomfortable passing >_<

 

[Dimidiata]

Very simply put, birds and reptiles and such dont simply ingest rocks,pebbles and sand, they store it in their gizzard(should they have one) the stones are rough normaly to aid grinding, then are regurgatated when they become to smooth. I know little about leo anatomy, but i know a good deal on bird.I dont belive leos have a gizzard thus swallowing rocks wouldnt be of much use to them, certainly swallowing rough rocks for the purpose of grinding wouldnt do them any good for their stomach lining. Atleast thats my thought process, if anyone knows otherwise, correct me .

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

What I'm asking is not is it a great idea to place a leopard gecko on pure sand, but if its beneificial to incorporate some to its environment.

There is no benefit whatsoever of keeping a leopard gecko on sand.

 

[leezard]

I have NEVER heard of a reputable breeder suggesting leopards need sand. They are not birds and have never heard of any reason they need it in there diets.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Actually, leopard gecko in the wild do not live on sand. The come from areas where the soil is hard-pack clay, limestone, and granite.

 

[katie_]

I was thinking the 'random' licking they tend to do in any environment could be what they do in the wild to pick up little particals to eat.
I would just like to know how their digestive system works. I found "well reptiles arent birds" comment to be slightly patronizing, I'm sorry if I took it the wrong way.
Thank you for your opinions, I guess I'll never know.

 

[katie_]

Cows have many stomachs, birds have crops, we have a pancreas...animals all have very different ways of digesting - I took many anatomy classes in college. None however touched on any reptiles what so ever. Maybe I'll ask a reptile vet.

 

[katie_]

To make a comparison between bird digestion and leopard gecko digestion seems incorrect. Leopard geckos do not have crops or gizzards. Their digestion is more like that of snakes and other reptiles. Slow, not fast like birds.

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/afspoultry-files/pubs/Anatomy_Digestive.pdf

Not all birds swallow stones. And those that do either pass or regurgitate the stones once they are no longer of use. The problem with leopard geckos is that they sometimes accumulate sand in their digestive system that they cannot pass, which leads to impaction.

Here is some gruesome pics of the anatomy
http://www.geckophilippines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=127

That is a pretty grusome. We had to disect a lot of things in school. This seems to be an autopsy, from what I've read. Hard to tell what the digestive system looks like covered in goo lol.

 

[RampantReptiles]

There is a major debate right now about the taxonomic history between birds(aves) and dinosaurs.
As you can see from the link below that birds are related to reptiles but not that closely related.
http://zipcodezoo.com/Key/Animalia/Reptilia_Class.asp

Leopard geckos belong to the Order Squamata, which includes all scaled reptiles aka lizards and snakes (not crocodiles or turtles those are separate)
http://zipcodezoo.com/Key/Animalia/Squamata_Order.asp

It is after this point in evolution that the snakes, sphenodonts (tuatara are really cool lizards to read about), and lizards split off (suborder Lacertilia). And then lizards split again into the infraorder Gekkota and then the family Gekkonidae.. and you get the idea.

I know this does not answer your questions about anatomy but understanding the evolutionary history can shed light on what creatures are related to one another and likely have similar characteristics.