Serious injury, looking for pm from someone experienced only pls

[Golden Gate Geckos]

In addition to trauma and infection as potential sources of neurological damage related to the cat attack, be sure to investigate the medication and dosing levels which were used to treat the wounds. Overdosed or incorrectly prescribed medications can have an impact on the brain and other systems in a fashion that can manifest as motor difficulty.

You are right, Seamus. Many medications can have toxic results if given inappropriately.

 

[gecko4245]

[/QUOTE]

YES! I didn't explain it as well as you (your a genious), but that was my thought to make sure to rule out other possibilities. I treated a gecko in the past with flagyl and he started acting strange. He looked confused, spacy and was laying in odd places. Luckily he only had one more day left on medicine and once I stopped he started acting normal again, but that was scary.

 

[gecko4245]

What exactly is a gecko soup? Is it nutritionally balanced?
I just googled it and I know this could not have been an idea of a vet.
It might be ok for a malnorished gecko but if a gecko had high uric acid this can send them to the grave alot faster.

Milk Thistle and Acidophilus (huh) this don't work for them. They don't have the enzyme to break lactose down.

This can't be balanced. Your vet should of told you about certain products and told you how much to give a day.

Here are two that the vet had me use in the past and worked great.

Mazuri carnivore reptile gel
oxbow carnivore care

It has to be given as directed only per your vet.
The vet could have also gave your gecko a shot of B-12 under the skin that is suppose help stimulate appetite.

 

[M_surinamensis]

What exactly is a gecko soup?

An easily digested slurry recipe that's been tweaked, worked on and balanced specifically for eyelid geckos experiencing anorexia or in need of supplementation by Marcia; who is incidentally one of the people I'd trust implicitly when she has something to say on the subject.

Is it nutritionally balanced?

It is nutritionally calculated. It is not for use in regular maintenance of healthy, feeding leopard geckos. It is specifically put together for animals which have not been eating, where dietary needs have not been met for a long enough period of time (which can be variable depending on other factors) for dietary health to be a concern.

It can keep an animal alive when it is not otherwise feeding. It can supplement an animal which has started to have negative effects from nutritional deficiencies. It can be used to provoke enzyme production and normal digestive function.

As with any deviation from a normal dietary regime, it should only be used when necessary, with caution and careful analysis of the potential risks and benefits.

I just googled it and I know this could not have been an idea of a vet.
It might be ok for a malnorished gecko but if a gecko had high uric acid this can send them to the grave alot faster.

Heh. I'll let Marcia supply the name of her vet, who (if I recall correctly) helped her formulate the mixture. You might recognize the name from your bookshelf.

Milk Thistle and Acidophilus (huh) this don't work for them. They don't have the enzyme to break lactose down.

Milk thistle is the common name of two species of plant, Silybum marianum and Silybum eburneum. The common name comes primarily from the white color of the sap. They do not contain lactose. They are however considered to be a medicinal herb, with verified properties improving liver function and helping flush toxins from the body. Properties which do carry over to other species which ingest them, including reptiles. Sometimes also used with aquarium fish, I know it's something that is given to livestock that have eaten something poisonous and I've known a vet who successfully gave it to a macaw that was experiencing metal poisoning.

Lactobacillus acidophilus can/will technically produce lactose as it breaks down complex sugars, but it also produces lactase and is an all purpose probiotic. Consequentially it's also something specifically given to address lactose intolerance and is one of the bacteria used in probiotic, lactose free yogurt. It's a bacteria that is naturally present in the digestive systems of many reptiles, so giving it to leos isn't a problem.

This can't be balanced.

You'd (apparently) be surprised.

Your vet should of told you about certain products and told you how much to give a day.

Here are two that the vet had me use in the past and worked great.

Mazuri carnivore reptile gel
oxbow carnivore food

You won't hear me badmouthing either of those products. although you won't hear ringing endorsements of them either; nutritional issues can be somewhat complicated and consequentially any general condition, non-species specific mix will never receive an endorsement higher than "It's adequate."

However... if you've got issues with milk thistle, you should really take a look at the ingredients in those two as well. Fish meal is the first ingredient in the Mazuri mix and it contains up to 14% ash. Oxbow wasn't even formulated specifically for reptiles and is best suited to meet the nutritional needs of endothermic predators. Both can be used, both are (as I said) adequate... but neither of them is better, for the species in question, than Marcia's slurry recipe. At least not out of the bag. I suppose they could be manipulated, cut, combined, mixed and worked with... but testing it for efficacy would be a rather involved process. One Marcia's mixture has already gone through.

 

[gecko4245]

An easily digested slurry recipe that's been tweaked, worked on and balanced specifically for eyelid geckos experiencing anorexia or in need of supplementation by Marcia; who is incidentally one of the people I'd trust implicitly when she has something to say on the subject.



It is nutritionally calculated. It is not for use in regular maintenance of healthy, feeding leopard geckos. It is specifically put together for animals which have not been eating, where dietary needs have not been met for a long enough period of time (which can be variable depending on other factors) for dietary health to be a concern.

It can keep an animal alive when it is not otherwise feeding. It can supplement an animal which has started to have negative effects from nutritional deficiencies. It can be used to provoke enzyme production and normal digestive function.

As with any deviation from a normal dietary regime, it should only be used when necessary, with caution and careful analysis of the potential risks and benefits.



Heh. I'll let Marcia supply the name of her vet, who (if I recall correctly) helped her formulate the mixture. You might recognize the name from your bookshelf.



Milk thistle is the common name of two species of plant, Silybum marianum and Silybum eburneum. The common name comes primarily from the white color of the sap. They do not contain lactose. They are however considered to be a medicinal herb, with verified properties improving liver function and helping flush toxins from the body. Properties which do carry over to other species which ingest them, including reptiles. Sometimes also used with aquarium fish, I know it's something that is given to livestock that have eaten something poisonous and I've known a vet who successfully gave it to a macaw that was experiencing metal poisoning.

Lactobacillus acidophilus can/will technically produce lactose as it breaks down complex sugars, but it also produces lactase and is an all purpose probiotic. Consequentially it's also something specifically given to address lactose intolerance and is one of the bacteria used in probiotic, lactose free yogurt. It's a bacteria that is naturally present in the digestive systems of many reptiles, so giving it to leos isn't a problem.



You'd (apparently) be surprised.



You won't hear me badmouthing either of those products. although you won't hear ringing endorsements of them either; nutritional issues can be somewhat complicated and consequentially any general condition, non-species specific mix will never receive an endorsement higher than "It's adequate."

However... if you've got issues with milk thistle, you should really take a look at the ingredients in those two as well. Fish meal is the first ingredient in the Mazuri mix and it contains up to 14% ash. Oxbow wasn't even formulated specifically for reptiles and is best suited to meet the nutritional needs of endothermic predators. Both can be used, both are (as I said) adequate... but neither of them is better, for the species in question, than Marcia's slurry recipe. At least not out of the bag. I suppose they could be manipulated, cut, combined, mixed and worked with... but testing it for efficacy would be a rather involved process. One Marcia's mixture has already gone through.

Thanks for clearing that up and all the info.

 

[M_surinamensis]

It's all good. I admit the first time I saw the ingredient list, I raised an eyebrow too.

Being the suspicious bastard that I am, always ready to pounce on a mistake and hold it up for everyone to look at, I checked over the recipe pretty thoroughly. To Marcia's credit (and my dismay at not being able to scream and yell), it all checked out very very well. Not that I'm really in a position to second guess her, certainly not on the subject of leopard geckos anyway.

 

[gecko4245]

It's all good. I admit the first time I saw the ingredient list, I raised an eyebrow too.

Being the suspicious bastard that I am, always ready to pounce on a mistake and hold it up for everyone to look at, I checked over the recipe pretty thoroughly. To Marcia's credit (and my dismay at not being able to scream and yell), it all checked out very very well. Not that I'm really in a position to second guess her, certainly not on the subject of leopard geckos anyway.

I am a little bit nutty when it comes to believing what I hear. I go crazy trying to find out if something is accurate or not I did not know she made it.
I am still wondering why when I asked the vet that if I can use a probiotic she told me it does not work, but like always I ask so many questions that she cuts me off.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I am still wondering why when I asked the vet that if I can use a probiotic she told me it does not work, but like always I ask so many questions that she cuts me off.

Possibly because the species of bacteria in the probiotic matter a great deal; not all of them will thrive inside a reptile's digestive system. In fact, some of the bacteria involved are far more host-specific than even that broad generalization, the species commonly found inside a human are not identical to those of other mammals, the species found in a leo are not the same as in an iguana or a monitor lizard.

There are relatively few generalized, adaptable species of probiotic bacteria that are found in many animals... but a dose of those is decent, to a point. They aren't a cure-all by any stretch, but they are mildly beneficial, especially in animals that have not eaten in some time.

 

[gecko4245]

Possibly because the species of bacteria in the probiotic matter a great deal; not all of them will thrive inside a reptile's digestive system. In fact, some of the bacteria involved are far more host-specific than even that broad generalization, the species commonly found inside a human are not identical to those of other mammals, the species found in a leo are not the same as in an iguana or a monitor lizard.

There are relatively few generalized, adaptable species of probiotic bacteria that are found in many animals... but a dose of those is decent, to a point. They aren't a cure-all by any stretch, but they are mildly beneficial, especially in animals that have not eaten in some time.

Thanks, now I get it

 

[Dimidiata]

....wowz. IM LEARNING XD. I know about milk thistle. We grow it in the cow and goat pens due to the variety of toxic plants that can pop up in there like coke berry and sumac. It doesnt fix the issues but it helps. Generaly the goats will eat it themselves, cattle.. not so much. As far as formulating a slurry for any animal, there are genneraly confilcts between people. I think the gecko soup has a decent enough reputation and is OK by seamus that id use it if needed. Lol. They dont teach us this in vet assisting, they dont teach much about reps at all....

 

[gecko4245]

:main_laugh

....wowz. IM LEARNING XD. I know about milk thistle. We grow it in the cow and goat pens due to the variety of toxic plants that can pop up in there like coke berry and sumac. It doesnt fix the issues but it helps. Generaly the goats will eat it themselves, cattle.. not so much. As far as formulating a slurry for any animal, there are genneraly confilcts between people. I think the gecko soup has a decent enough reputation and is OK by seamus that id use it if needed. Lol. They dont teach us this in vet assisting, they dont teach much about reps at all....

So true. I try so hard to find info anywhere I can. I am as suspicous as he is but not as smart I read as much as I can and I know I can be annoying especially to the vet with questions, but it's hard to find very good accurate information. Too add I am so suspicous that everything the vet tells me I look things up to see if it matches.:main_laugh:
My husband tells me I'm nuts!

 

[gecko4245]

I don't mean to be a pest, but I like to make sense out of things and so I have a question. When the vet orders these foods:

Mazuri carnivore reptile gel
oxbow carnivore food

They don't just tell you to feed it freely. Its ordered by body weight and depending on the situation. ex: mix 1teaspoon of water with 1/4 of product. So to prevent overdosage.

So my concern would be that the gecko soup does not tell you how much you can give in one day. Unless I missed that info some where?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Since it seems the topic of this thread has shifted to the ingredients of my slurry, I will try to clarify. I created the Golden Gate Geckos Slurry many years ago when I lost 17 out of 24 sick geckos to hepatic lipidosis from aflatoxic poisoning as a result of chronic ingestion of crickets that were cultured on moldy chicken mash from the grower. It was Dr. Frederic L. Frye that I consulted with for the diagnosis, necropsies, and pathology for this tragedy. Once I got the results of analysis on the crickets, I was able to rehabilitate the other 7 geckos using the slurry. My slurry has saved literally hundreds of geckos that were off food while being treated for parasitic and bacterial infections. It is now not only endorsed by my veterinarian Dr. Kenneth Harkewicz (President of the ARAV, consulting reptile vet for the VIN, Oakland Zoo's Exotics Department, and former Associate Professor for UC Davis' Exotic Animal Department), but Texas A & M University and the University of Guelph, Ontario's Reptile Department.

Let's take a look at the ingredients for the GGG Slurry and why they are used:

Hill's A/D pet food - a high-calorie, high protein, pasteurized meat food for convalescing carnivores.

Mealworms (bulk of the recipe) - another high calorie, high protein food for insectivores that not only provides a little more balance and roughage, but provides the smell and taste that makes the slurry palatable for geckos.

Squash - a complex carbohydrate that is not a calcium binder, and keeps the slurry in the gecko's GI system a little longer for better nutrient absorption.

Milk Thistle - a natural plant-based liver purifier. Hepatic Lipidosis in anorexic leopard geckos is caused by the mobilization of fat reserves that can 'clog' the liver.

Pedialite - provides electrolytes to promote kidney function and prevent dehydration.

Ensure - another high-calorie, high nutrient liquid that is not a dairy product (lactose free).

Supplements - added calcium and vitamins developed for reptiles.

As far as probiotics, I use Lactobacillus, Bifitus, (L.) acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, and L. fermentum in a capsule form. These live organisms help restore the balance of gram positive bacteria in the intestines of geckos being treated for gram negative bacterial infections. Antibiotic treatment usually targets the gram negative bacteria which causes infection, but can also destroy the 'good' gut flora that is essential for proper digestion. There is an ongoing debate whether or not probiotics are effective in cold-blooded animals, as well as the degradation of the live microorganisms over time. I have seen miraculous recoveries of geckos with diarrhea using probiotics alone when I got a few geckos from another breeder that had mycosis (yeast infections).

 

[gecko4245]

Since it seems the topic of this thread has shifted to the ingredients of my slurry, I will try to clarify. I created the Golden Gate Geckos Slurry many years ago when I lost 17 out of 24 sick geckos to hepatic lipidosis from aflatoxic poisoning as a result of chronic ingestion of crickets that were cultured on moldy chicken mash from the grower. It was Dr. Frederic L. Frye that I consulted with for the diagnosis, necropsies, and pathology for this tragedy. Once I got the results of analysis on the crickets, I was able to rehabilitate the other 7 geckos using the slurry. My slurry has saved literally hundreds of geckos that were off food while being treated for parasitic and bacterial infections. It is now not only endorsed by my veterinarian Dr. Kenneth Harkewicz (President of the ARAV, consulting reptile vet for the VIN, Oakland Zoo's Exotics Department, and former Associate Professor for UC Davis' Exotic Animal Department), but Texas A & M University and the University of Guelph, Ontario's Reptile Department.

Let's take a look at the ingredients for the GGG Slurry and why they are used:

Hill's A/D pet food - a high-calorie, high protein, pasteurized meat food for convalescing carnivores.

Mealworms (bulk of the recipe) - another high calorie, high protein food for insectivores that not only provides a little more balance and roughage, but provides the smell and taste that makes the slurry palatable for geckos.

Squash - a complex carbohydrate that is not a calcium binder, and keeps the slurry in the gecko's GI system a little longer for better nutrient absorption.

Milk Thistle - a natural plant-based liver purifier. Hepatic Lipidosis in anorexic leopard geckos is caused by the mobilization of fat reserves that can 'clog' the liver.

Pedialite - provides electrolytes to promote kidney function and prevent dehydration.

Ensure - another high-calorie, high nutrient liquid that is not a dairy product (lactose free).

Supplements - added calcium and vitamins developed for reptiles.

As far as probiotics, I use Lactobacillus, Bifitus, (L.) acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, and L. fermentum in a capsure form. These live organisms help restore the balance of gram positive bacteria in the intestines of geckos being treated for gram negative bacterial infections. Antibiotic treatment usually targets the gram negative bacteria which causes infection, but can also destroy the 'good' gut flora that is essential for proper digestion. There is an ongoing debate whether or not probiotics are effective in cold-blooded animals, as well as the degradation of the live microorganisms over time. I have seen miraculous recoveries of geckos with diarrhea using probiotics alone when I got a few geckos from another breeder that had mycosis (yeast infections).

Thank you but it did not answer my question if it was safe to feed freely. It's ok never mind.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thank you but it did not answer my question if it was safe to feed freely. It's ok never mind.

Sorry, there were so many questions I left one answer out.

I have found that some larger adult geckos will take up to 2cc, and others only .25cc at a time. In some cases it's best to feed half the amount 2X a day to prevent regurgitation, and others just keep lapping it until they are full. Remember, this slurry is NOT going to cure anything, and geckos will not get fat on it while they are convalescing. Use the very scientific 'eyeball' method for the volume depending on the gecko's size and appetite.

 

[gecko4245]

Sorry, there were so many questions I left one answer out.

I have found that some larger adult geckos will take up to 2cc, and others only .25cc at a time. In some cases it's best to feed half the amount 2X a day to prevent regurgitation, and others just keep lapping it until they are full. Remember, this slurry is NOT going to cure anything, and geckos will not get fat on it while they are convalescing. Use the very scientific 'eyeball' method for the volume depending on the gecko's size and appetite.

good to know, Thanks again. Never know if I will have to use it one day

 

[chrisherp]

Interesting thread. I was also told Acidophilus was not effective as well, but it seems it might work afterall. Worth a try.:main_thumbsup:

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Back to the OP's question of getting the gecko back to eating regular food........... a freshly shed small bug dipped in the gecko slurry has worked for me. It takes a lot of patience. The slurry/soup has worms in it so the gecko is already familiar with their flavor. This gecko may always have enigma-like behavior and not be able to eat out of a dish, but it's not so bad to tong feed once it has recovered as much as it can. Some rehabs take a long time and a lot of patience.

The nutrition in the slurry recipe is top notch and can definitely get a gecko past a rough spot while under vet care and medication.

 

[Russ S]

I have moved or deleted several posts from this thread.
The posts can be found here as they are more pertinent to that thread than this one

 

[Mich]

Figured I'd post an update because it's nice to hear a good ending in these terrible situations. Its been a long few months but she is eating ON HER OWN again!!! After about a month of the gecko soup diet she started to snap at meal worms and now also eats her crickets The head wobble is nearly undetectible and her tail has fully grown back (half is still pink in color but its getting there!!). Wow I didn't think this little one would make it!!! Sooo happy! Thanks to those who sent msgs with advise. There was a few posts debating the gecko soup however I'm positive if it wasn't for that my gecko would have starved to death long ago, thank you golden gate geckos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!