Silkback Dragons

[LadyGecko]

I have just discovered that these dragons exist (yeah-I'm a bit slow these days-LOL) and I have been doing a lot of reading from what I could find out about them

What I understand so far about them is this-
that they are a mutation that seems to have popped up both in this country (US) and in Europe in unrelated breedings and that they are a result from the breeding of a lesser spiked (Leather back) bearded dragon and they differ drastically from any other Pogona Vitticeps in the fact that they have no spikes and their skin is smooth

At first glance I found them to be rather alien looking but pretty in a strange sort of way

I think that is because after keeping Beardie's for 12 plus years now that have preconceived notions of what a typical bearded dragon looks like-whether it be a plain old normal or a dragon of high color

Link for Dachau's site is

www.dachiu.com/


I personally am very interested to see what happens with this "oddity" and if it proves to be hardy and healthy

I believe that it is rather useless to speculate whether the animal should be here or not as the animals already exist and they are very unlikely to be euthanized solely because of their difference in appearance

I have read that they are exhibiting a normal rate of growth and that they shed just as their normally skinned/spiked counterparts do

I believe that it was stated that they require a bit more humidity to aid with their sheds
No big deal there to me

Each individual lizard in the same species can require a varying level of humidity to aid with a shed

I remember reading quite frequently in my early days of Beardie Keeping -not to leave a bowl of water in a bearded dragons tank because it would increase the humidity level and they would get a respiratory infection

Leaving a source of clean drinking water in their tank does no such thing (I always thought that to deprive them of water was nuts) and if memory serves me right-there were quite a few reports on different forums from trips to the vet from people with dehydrated dragons out there from following that advice

My point being that I don't think that if these dragons do require a bit more humidity-it does not mean that they will automatically develop a respiratory infection

The other big issue seems to be whether the females skin will hold up during mating

If their skin stands up to every day living and growing -would courtship bites when the male is posturing the female to breed do excessive damage to their smooth skin ?

I have read that there is artificial insemination already being used with bearded dragons so I guess that whole issue could be side-stepped

Artificial Insemination is commonly used with many species of animals these days so it would not be an unheard of or an unusual procedure to apply to this mutation to produce more of them

My intake on the whole thing is that if they are healthy -why not just see what happens with them as they grow up?

I really do not believe that how ever many heated debates that there might be -on how ever many forums -that it is going to have any influence on the continuance of this mutation by the parties that are working with them

Also-many mutations/oddities that are now commonplace in the reptile hobby were once looked upon with extreme disfavor and disgust at their unveiling in the reptile keeping hobby

The only objection that I could possibly have with the raising and reproduction of this animal is if it can not live a normal healthy life

I guess either you like them or you don't

For what it's worth-Just my 2 cents

Sandy

 

[beardieman]

The problem is is that this animal has the same instincts as a normal bearded dragon but can not be allowed to use them. they can not bask in the same heat as a beardie should which causes them some digestion problems. they can not be allowed to bask as long so you have to monitor them while basking. you can not have an course material in their cages (such as a slightly rough basking rock to aid with shedding) due to their fragile skin.

Also, though these "mutations" have popped up in several areas they are all traced back to a breeding house in th uk. I do not know where because every time the name has been brought up it has been deleted by someone on many different forums. These "silk backs" are coming from a breeder of leather backs that has been selectively breeding beardies for a decade or so getting the slickest leatherbacks he could to breed. from what i have read due to a limited supply of the ones the originating company wanted to use, quite a bit of inbreeding was performed.

These animals though they may be just another form of a beardie have been specifically bred by men. They are not something that just happened naturally. This mutation is no different then the designer dogs of today. Yes some of them are quite beautiful. But the have a shortened life expectancy. they end up with extreme medical problems. Have severe birth defects such as being born missing limbs. It is something that was done to appeal to people that want even more "vibrant" dragons.

I personally feel that this is wrong. If it was something that had occured completely by accident just by breeding health dragons from different lines and these started popping up that would be one thing. But since it is something that humans caused it is just cruel to the breed.

This is my opinion and i have already had a thread locked out for expressing this opinion on this forum so i hope they do not do it to you as well.

 

[PaulSage]

Honestly, I think they're hideous.

<by the way, there is no problem with this thread being here as long as it does not violate GeckoForums.net TOS.>

 

[LadyGecko]

Beardieman-Thanks for the additional info

Can I please ask you where you got the information about any digestive problems with these animals?


If they are growing (and thriving ?) with the lower temps then how can there be a problem ?

To me-having them at a lower basking temperature than normal Beardies doesn't prohibit them from acting like Bearded Dragons

Does their skin really tear if they rub against a rock or something rough?
Has this been documented?

As to the fact that they were selectively bred to be the way that they are-as I said before-if there are no health problems then why not?

Obviously I was not aware of the fact-missed it somehow -that this has been an ongoing project and not a "chance mutation"

I think that if every time that a major variation occurred within a species and if propagation of that animal was successfully discouraged-that we would be not be where we are today with the tremendous variety in the reptile world

Whether people believe that this is a bad or a good thing is entirely an individuals opinion

In answer to the point about "designer dogs"-I agree with you that there have been many desired for "cosmetic" changes brought about that have resulted in health problems for the breeds involved

I do think that anything done at the expense of the animals health is wrong
plain and simple

But I am not aware whether that this has been proved or disproved yet with these dragons


Having said all that-I am still not sure exactly if I like them or don't like them

But I am very curious about them

Sandy

 

[yellermelon]

I have kept BD'S for 8 years, well..Ive had 2 for that long! And I, like Paul think they are one of the ugliest things Ive seen In awhile, I do not think this morph will fare well in the reptile industry. But Ive been wrong before, I guess we will see.

 

[LadyGecko]

Chris-you very well may be right or they may not be as hardy as presently thought and not reproduce at all

I Googled Silkback and came up with quite a few results

I found a link to an Italian breeder on a site called Reptile-keeper and this person has some incredible dragons of color

Pity that I cannot read or speak Italian even though I am half Italian

http://www.reptilekeeper.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3279

On the next page are link to both the Leatherbacks and the Silkbacks

Silkbacks

http://www.pogonavitticeps.it/intr_file/page0001.htm

Leatherbacks

http://www.pogonavitticeps.it/intr_file/page0005.htm

I am still deciding as to whether I like them or not

Honestly if there is no health problems found to be associated with them-at the risk of being a minority here-i think that i like them

:goofy:

I will continue to look for more information on these guys not because I want one or could possibly come close to affording one-but because I am curious about them

Sandy

 

[goReptiles]

i'm not sure i see the difference with the leatherbacks and the normal beardies... ?

I love their coloring, but their skin looks weird to me... I dunno... I'm not a big fan of them I guess.

 

[Nastynotch]

thanks for the links sandy, dachiu wasnt coming up for me.

 

[LadyGecko]

Whitney-from what I understand the Leatherbacks have reduced or no tubercules/spikes and normal scales and the silkbacks have a complete lack of scales and spines with a very smooth skin

They certainly are a very different animal for a reptile

Nathan-Dachiu's site was working when I first started reading about these guys yesterday and then when I went back -the site was not coming up for me either
and you're welcome

Oh and I did finally figure out that the is a translation tool in IE that comes in real handy in a situation like this
I never had to use it before-lol

At the risk of being a minority here-and still depending on the verdict on their overall health-
I think that I like them
:wideeyed:

 

[beardieman]

here is the science so to speak behind what i said.
beardies use heat to aid in digestion. so with them having to have limited amounts of heat there will probably be digestion problems so basically they will have a extremely reduced varitey of insects that they can eat.

the information i got about them was from talking to numerous breeders and keepers on various forums and at various reptile shows. the life of these lizards is shortened as well. they are not known to live past 3-5 years unlike the life expectancy of normal and color morph beardies extending sometimes past ten. they get respiratory problems due to their need for heightened humidity. though the skin may need it their internals are not able to deal with a wet environment. Also, from someone that i met that had a male silkback he informed me that he originally had a rougher rock for it to bask on and rub agains for shedding like other beardies. he had a vet bill from hell after this due to the fact that the silkback ripped itself open by rubbing on the rock. hince me saying it still has the instincts of a normal beardie but the innability to follow them. also with the shortened time for basking makes for a much more problematic time in raising them. you have to constantly monitor their basking.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

IMO, the leatherbacks are interesting. If what is being said about the silkbacks is true, I don't think they should be breed. Just as blue merle dogs ,and hairless chinese cresteds, shouldn't be breed together to form a super. The results are uniformly a disabled animal. Now that it's out there, it's not going to stop people. Sad.

 

[LadyGecko]

Thanks again for the info-
that being the case then I can not see them living a complete lifespan and I don't think that we will have to worry about them being around for very long

 

[PaulSage]

I have read that they are exhibiting a normal rate of growth and that they shed just as their normally skinned/spiked counterparts do

I'm having trouble understanding how they can exhibit a normal rate of growth if they're kept at lower temperatures and/or not allowed access to as much basking time as normal skinned dragons. Heat is a necessary part of their digestive process, so how can you reduce/limit that without it having some affect on their growth rate?

 

[beardieman]

they dont have a "normal rate of growth" when compared to normal beardies. they do not grow as long if my memory serves (cause i talked about this with some breeders about 3 months ago) these beardies dont get much past 14 inches in length. they do not digest nutrients quite as well as a regular beardie does because of the lowered access to light and heat. thus causing them to have a stunted growth of sorts. also the clutches these produce when bread are significantly smaller and from what ive read they have a much higher rate of infertal eggs being layed. Personally i dont think these animals should be continuing to be bread. if you want a smooth skinned high color lizard just get one of the many beautiful gecko morphs that are available today. thats the way i look at it. bad stuff happens when we decide to play god cause we want to "make things better". screw the consumer. if they dont want a beardie cause it aint "cute colorful and smooth" enough for them then they dont need one you know. Im a big animal rights guy and i disagree with practices like this.

 

[Double LY]

here is the science so to speak behind what i said.
beardies use heat to aid in digestion. so with them having to have limited amounts of heat there will probably be digestion problems so basically they will have a extremely reduced varitey of insects that they can eat.

the information i got about them was from talking to numerous breeders and keepers on various forums and at various reptile shows. the life of these lizards is shortened as well. they are not known to live past 3-5 years unlike the life expectancy of normal and color morph beardies extending sometimes past ten. they get respiratory problems due to their need for heightened humidity. though the skin may need it their internals are not able to deal with a wet environment. Also, from someone that i met that had a male silkback he informed me that he originally had a rougher rock for it to bask on and rub agains for shedding like other beardies. he had a vet bill from hell after this due to the fact that the silkback ripped itself open by rubbing on the rock. hince me saying it still has the instincts of a normal beardie but the innability to follow them. also with the shortened time for basking makes for a much more problematic time in raising them. you have to constantly monitor their basking.

I'm interested in finding out which breeders/reptile shows you obtained your knowledge from. Everything I've read says the silkback popped up in late 2006. If that's the case, then how could anyone know about it's life expectancy being shorter than a regular beardie. Also, from what I've read this morph is not yet for sale. I'm curious how a friend of yours already has one. Must have paid a pretty penny.

As far as my opinion on this subject goes - I personally don't like the look of them and would not buy one. However, IF it is proven that they can have a good quality of life - to each his own.

 

[beardieman]

it was last year i went to a show in atlanta georgia and one in jacksonville fl last year. they have only been for sale in the states since last year. you could order them from foreign breeders since about 02-03 time frame i believe. not certain. now note im merely regurgitating what i have been told about them. nothing i have said is from hands on experience with them myself. ive never seen one in person and i can say i do not want to.

 

[Double LY]

it was last year i went to a show in atlanta georgia and one in jacksonville fl last year. they have only been for sale in the states since last year.

Who is selling them in the states?

 

[beardieman]

that i wouldnt know i just have read on other forums that they are available in the states now. previously they had to be ordered from over seas.

 

[Gecko]

There's been some information I read about a "scaleless" mutation in a water snake. I forget the details, but i think it was a simple one gene thing. Some US species.

 

[LZRDGRL]

Okay, I've decided to bump this old thread from 2007 (forgive me), to see what people nowadays think about Silkbacks :main_yes:

I have one and am happy with him. I will breed him (to a microscale Leatherback). He is shedding now and has no issues (I will assist him with cow udder cream, but I'm not even sure it's necessary). It would be interesting how many people have experiences with them, good or bad....

Chrissy