Swollen hand and lumps under skin

[T&KBrouse]

I received an email from one of the reptile moms on our mailing list. I told her I would come here for some guidance to try to help quickly, but I also encouraged her to join.

I am by no means well versed when it comes to leo health problems. Any thoughts?

Hi.
Have you ever heard of a leopard gecko getting a really swollen hand and developing lumps under the skin at random places? Ours went to the vet for it and he put her on antibiotics but it’s getting worse and I don’t see anything on the web about it. As you probably know Dr Griffin isn’t cheap and I’m afraid of the bills that will build up. (last trip was 232 dollars and problem isn’t better) Know of any other good rep vets or solutions?
Thanks, Lisa

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Do you know if it has been housed alone?

 

[T&KBrouse]

I believe she has, but to be sure, I've sent her another email asking more details.
I've also asked her how long she has had her, if shes getting calcium suppliments and about her level of activity.
I'll be sure to keep everyone posted as I hear back from her.

 

[M_surinamensis]

It's irresponsible to diagnose animals based off the subjective interpretation of an observer that does not have a lot of medical experience without seeing the animal firsthand.

It is also pretty sketchy to offer firm opinions on courses of treatment without legal permission to practice veterinary medicine.

Unfortunately for this woman and her gecko, that means that anyone who is genuinely qualified to help her with a problem like this will be disinclined to do so online. Anyone who is willing to offer suggestions is probably not really in a position to be acting as an information resource.

If she registers and posts what the vet wrote down or told her, I am sure someone could explain what it means in layman's terms if she's having an issue understanding what the problem is- but nobody will be able to offer a reliable second opinion and nobody should try to contradict the veterinarian who actually saw the animal.*

*except in the very rare cases when a veterinarian who had no business looking at the species in question to begin with does so anyway and issues a diagnosis that is a medical impossibility. Like claiming a turtle has a slipped spinal disk when the shell is intact.

 

[T&KBrouse]

*sigh* I really miss the days of kindred-ness on here.

Once upon a time, if someone came to this forum with such a question, there would be helpful answers like, "You know, I had one that had similar symptoms and the vet did this to try to get a diagnosis."

Thats what happened with one of my ball pythons that had a recurring RI that could not be cured. I came here. Asked opinions and experiences, and someone said, "Has the vet tried doing a culture to check for a pseudomonas bacterial infection?"
Because he hadn't thought about it, he hadn't. He then did it and low and behold, thats exactly what it was.

Not asking for a diagnosis. Not asking for veterinary advice. Just asking for experiences or possibilities the vet might not think of off hand for the reptile moma to talk to him about.

Tell you what. Nevermind.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

K, I'm interested in learning of this condition- whatever it is. Rehabbing lizards brings me a great deal of joy and any new information can be helpful down the road. Our vet is very good in explaining and showing me, if possible, anything I ask him. He does seminars for the central FL Repticon shows about old world chameleons, his passion in the reptile world. It's always a pleasure to see him and learn something new, even if I have to drive 2 hours for an office visit with one of our animals.

I asked if the sick gecko was housed alone because if not, it certainly should be. Of course you know that, you've been on the forum a long time But if it hadn't been, is any other(s) showing any similar symptoms that perhaps aren't as obvious? What kind of lumps, how many, and where exactly are they located? What antibiotic was prescribed?

I hope your friend can find something positive soon

 

[T&KBrouse]

Thanks, Laney.
You don't happen to see Dr. Jack Landiss, do you? We were so blessed to have him as our vet when we were in FL. He was an amazing herp vet.

I'm not positive, but I believe Lisa had mentioned she has 2 beardies but only the one leo. I'll find out more from her about the lumps. If they're in the armpit area, they're pretty explainable, but if not? ...
I didn't think to ask her what type of antibiotic she was prescribed. I'll have to check on that, too.

 

[T&KBrouse]

Just got this from Lisa.
She does get calcium but hasn’t been eating much-it doesn’t have d3 though. We’ve had her 1 year, and she is active but is struggling with her foot.Her x rays looked great so he figured it was an infection.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

No K, it's Dr. Ivan Alfonso in Orlando. Him and his wife are such nice, down to earth people who truly care about our herps' health. We saw them at the Daytona Expo and they both asked separately from each other how my little Apple Annie was doing. She had a severe eye infection and a huge parasite load. He worked on her and showed me how to maintain her eyes so they'd heal, and showed me the live parasite culture on his microscope. All this was done at a show but the panacur had to come from his clinic. They were both elated to hear she was doing well as he didn't know if she would pull thru.

Funny you mention Lisa has bearded dragons. We took in a rescue that had been housed with a beardie. Not saying this is the case with your friend but it would be good to confirm. Our little rescue had only one eye due to a beardie attack She recovered from that but had underlying issues and could not be saved.

 

[acpart]

*sigh* I really miss the days of kindred-ness on here.

QUOTE]

Remember that since we come from many different places, both geographically and in terms of mindset, one person's opinion about how to proceed is just that: one person's opinion. When I get a variety of responses to a post I decide to what extent I want to respond to the ones that agree with me and to what extent it's worth responding to the ones that don't agree with me and proceed accordingly.

Don't give up because of one post.

Aliza

 

[M_surinamensis]

*sigh* I really miss the days of kindred-ness on here.

I really miss a lot of things myself. The tone and content of herpetocultural message boards from the past being a big one. My glory days aren't identical to your glory days though- I much preferred the kind of environment where professionals were sharing technical information and nobody was asking the impossible because everyone involved understood the limitations of the medium. The "What morph is this?" mentality that has become so pervasive makes my fists twitch.

I went and re-read my post. Because I am a person with a tremendous capacity for offhanded and callous disregard for the feelings and self esteem of others. Not really my responsibility to coddle people with a bunch of soft language, excuses and apologies. However I was unable to find anything unkind in it- it seemed like a simple and straightforward explanation of the fact that a message board cannot offer any substantial help to a person who is experiencing a medical problem with an animal they own, coupled with a sort of offer to translate a diagnosis or set of test results, that being the most extensive assistance that can be rendered under the circumstances.

Once upon a time, if someone came to this forum with such a question, there would be helpful answers like, "You know, I had one that had similar symptoms and the vet did this to try to get a diagnosis."

You and I have very different definitions of the word "helpful."

It makes me wonder what you think "counterproductive tripe that obscures factual understanding" means.

Not asking for a diagnosis. Not asking for veterinary advice. Just asking for experiences or possibilities the vet might not think of off hand for the reptile moma to talk to him about.

Past experiences with similar threads have indicated that diagnosis and advice are exactly what posts like yours generate. Almost all of it from people who are not qualified to be commenting, because the competent types stay quiet and refuse to offer an opinion due to insufficient information.

It has to do, largely, with subjectivity. The way an observer interprets and describes information can change substantially depending on their own past experiences and knowledge. This is why medical and veterinary professionals have their own definitions for specific terms and why they all go through an educational experience that is similar- to give them a common comprehension so that they can reliably share information. Most pet owners do not have that same singular understanding- "red" can be anything from a mild but noticeable blushing to the color of a stop sign, "swollen" can mean anything from a small increase in size to exponential increases, "bumps" can be anything from pinhead sized scabbed areas to massive rounded areas.

To compound it, many visible symptoms can have multiple potential causes, even if they are being described by an observer who is technically proficient. The best that could be done is a list of potential causes for similar symptoms- although even that hinges on the observational and descriptive skills of the person who is seeing it directly.

The chances of randomly stumbling across some miraculous answer that did not occur to the veterinarian who performed the firsthand examination and prescribed the course of treatment are extremely low.

The chances of confusing the owner and getting them to try something counter to the advice of the vet are unfortunately high.

It helps nothing while potentially harming the animal. It should not be done and you should not ask anyone to try anyway.

Remember that since we come from many different places, both geographically and in terms of mindset, one person's opinion about how to proceed is just that: one person's opinion.

I'm from South Boston, I only mention it because the geographic bit there is amusing considering your own residence. The mindset part is certainly accurate though.

"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing."- Harlan Ellison

 

[gothra]

*sigh* I really miss the days of kindred-ness on here.

Once upon a time, if someone came to this forum with such a question, there would be helpful answers like, "You know, I had one that had similar symptoms and the vet did this to try to get a diagnosis."

Thats what happened with one of my ball pythons that had a recurring RI that could not be cured. I came here. Asked opinions and experiences, and someone said, "Has the vet tried doing a culture to check for a pseudomonas bacterial infection?"
Because he hadn't thought about it, he hadn't. He then did it and low and behold, thats exactly what it was.

Not asking for a diagnosis. Not asking for veterinary advice. Just asking for experiences or possibilities the vet might not think of off hand for the reptile moma to talk to him about.

Tell you what. Nevermind.

I agree. I thought this is what this sub-forum is for - to talk about health issues. Doesn't mean everyone is trying to give/receive straight diagnose over the internet; but hearing what others think about something won't hurt. Especially if others have had something similar happened to their gecko, sharing the experience with the worried owner would be great.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Fortunately with all the information available on the internet and the ability to interact with others thru specialized forums like this one, we are able to ask our vets more specific questions with a greater level of intelligence. This also helps the vet as we are more versed on symptoms that can assist them with diagnosis. Imagine the vet's frustration whan a gecko is brought in and the owner says my lizard is sick. They ask what's going on with it, only to be told "I don't know, it just isn't acting right."

We come here not just to share our joys and sorrows of gecko keeping, but also to share important information. And yes, opinions too.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I really miss a lot of things myself. The tone and content of herpetocultural message boards from the past being a big one. My glory days aren't identical to your glory days though- I much preferred the kind of environment where professionals were sharing technical information and nobody was asking the impossible because everyone involved understood the limitations of the medium. The "What morph is this?" mentality that has become so pervasive makes my fists twitch.

I went and re-read my post. Because I am a person with a tremendous capacity for offhanded and callous disregard for the feelings and self esteem of others. Not really my responsibility to coddle people with a bunch of soft language, excuses and apologies. However I was unable to find anything unkind in it- it seemed like a simple and straightforward explanation of the fact that a message board cannot offer any substantial help to a person who is experiencing a medical problem with an animal they own, coupled with a sort of offer to translate a diagnosis or set of test results, that being the most extensive assistance that can be rendered under the circumstances.




You and I have very different definitions of the word "helpful."

It makes me wonder what you think "counterproductive tripe that obscures factual understanding" means.



Past experiences with similar threads have indicated that diagnosis and advice are exactly what posts like yours generate. Almost all of it from people who are not qualified to be commenting, because the competent types stay quiet and refuse to offer an opinion due to insufficient information.

It has to do, largely, with subjectivity. The way an observer interprets and describes information can change substantially depending on their own past experiences and knowledge. This is why medical and veterinary professionals have their own definitions for specific terms and why they all go through an educational experience that is similar- to give them a common comprehension so that they can reliably share information. Most pet owners do not have that same singular understanding- "red" can be anything from a mild but noticeable blushing to the color of a stop sign, "swollen" can mean anything from a small increase in size to exponential increases, "bumps" can be anything from pinhead sized scabbed areas to massive rounded areas.

To compound it, many visible symptoms can have multiple potential causes, even if they are being described by an observer who is technically proficient. The best that could be done is a list of potential causes for similar symptoms- although even that hinges on the observational and descriptive skills of the person who is seeing it directly.

The chances of randomly stumbling across some miraculous answer that did not occur to the veterinarian who performed the firsthand examination and prescribed the course of treatment are extremely low.

The chances of confusing the owner and getting them to try something counter to the advice of the vet are unfortunately high.

It helps nothing while potentially harming the animal. It should not be done and you should not ask anyone to try anyway.



I'm from South Boston, I only mention it because the geographic bit there is amusing considering your own residence. The mindset part is certainly accurate though.

"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing."- Harlan Ellison

Well I'm not vet, but I am a half-way decent carpenter, and I can testify to how the wealth of information on the net and the cable box can be really frustrating to a professional in any vocation.

It's really nice to be able to find information about pretty much anything, but it's dangerous if we don't have the training and/or experience necessary to make an informed decision with it. I swear I'm gonna smack the next person that asks me if I watch "Holmes on Holmes"...

I understand why someone would come here to ask a question about something, most basically because it's quick and free, I imagine. I might do the same if I had an issue with one of my herps. But from my experience with "empowered clients", I wonder how annoyed the vet would be if you came back in suggesting the issue is something that he's already ruled out for some reason you don't have a category for. That's almost always the case in my business.

M_surinamensis- Are you still in Boston? I never would have imagined you being up here...

 

[acpart]

I think the key to this is what you do with the information you get from the internet. At one extreme, reading a post about a gecko's condition, rushing out and buying a drug because of what the post says and self treating is dangerous. On the other hand, using the internet for ideas and either trying a harmless home remedy like a warm soak (yes, I know that some remedies can seem harmless and be dangerous but hopefully people will use a little judgement) or asking a professional about whether a treatment they read about on the internet could work could be helpful. I also get people who ask me about things they have seen on the internet relating to their care and my profession (I'm a home care speech therapist) and while some of what they come up with is out in left field, sometimes they have found an appropriate product or a good idea. It has certainly happened before that someone has pulled together information that has been helpful to other people who didn't happen to come across that information. I think a more interesting discussion is about how to deal with information that is found on the internet rather than whether or not people should solicit it or find it.

Aliza

 

[Northstar Herp]

Absolutely.

One of the first things I think of is the inherently crappy form of communication that we are involved in. Not that's it's worthless or shouldn't be done, but in any print format, particularly one as succinct as a forum format, it is extremely easy to misunderstand. Sometimes I think it's a miracle anything gets conveyed accurately at all.

 

[M_surinamensis]

M_surinamensis- Are you still in Boston? I never would have imagined you being up here...

I've been in Colorado handling a family situation for a little over a year but am moving back to Boston (the center of all earthly art, science, wisdom and knowledge) in... probably early October, whenever I get around to finalizing a few things here and driving back.

 

[acpart]

I've been in Colorado handling a family situation for a little over a year but am moving back to Boston (the center of all earthly art, science, wisdom and knowledge) in... probably early October, whenever I get around to finalizing a few things here and driving back.

Give us a little warning so we're prepared when the time comes . . .

Aliza

 

[M_surinamensis]

Give us a little warning so we're prepared when the time comes . . .

You'll have plenty of warning, any time I return home from wandering the globe the very air shimmers with the strains of an electric guitar and the voice of Bon Scott.

"I'm dirty, mean, I'm mighty unclean. I'm a wanted man. Public enemy number one, understand? So lock up your daughter. Lock up your wife. Lock up your back door. Run for your life. The man is back in town..."