Tail Kinks frowned upon?

[Dog Shrink]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the way to clean bloodlines by introducing new untainted blood? So if his male has a kinked tail and his female doesn't he runs the risk of having a clutch 50/50 kinked and not right? You could cull the kinked ones, then take the unkined ones and outcross again to further clean the gene pool right... until eventually he'd have babies that were descended of his kinked tail but no longer carry the trait for kinked tail?

 

[aburningflame]

here are the pictures

Lemon - Patty

Eggo - Normal

Big Al - Bell Albino (maybe tremper but i think hes a bell gray eyes with a few red veins)

Lemon is the male who is with Eggo.

Big Al is alone - I dont think hes ready for breeding yet

Could you please comment on their health and whether theyre breeding quality?


here are my guesses:
Lemon - kinked tail - dont breed , otherwise healthy
Eggo - breed ..nice and healthy
Big Al - wait a bit - he seems young and still a lil on the underweight side


Your information and help IS appreciated. Im really sorry for sounding like a jerk before - its just hard to accept that i cant breed lemon hes my favorite.

 

[MiamiLeos]

Dog Shrink- Yes he can breed them and some may have kinked tails and some may not, but they will ALL have the compromizations because it is not like morph genes in that it is dominant, co dominant, or recessive. It is there, always there, just to what degree. So lets say he has some babies with normal tails. If they were to come into the hands of someone who also had a genetically compromised gecko, thats just a mess. The point here is that we are trying to clear the gene pool. Breeding his male would do the direct opposite of that.

Flame- Lemon looks like he has a pretty typical tail kink. If he were mine, I would not breed him. Your other two look good and healthy to me, but I cant tell from the pics if that is a kink at the end of the females tail or just the angle of the pic. If you get some clearer body shots of the albino male as well as a good eye shot we can probably tell you what strain of albino you have there. He looks healthy enough to breed in my opinion, unless you have really small hands. Do you know how much he weighs? Breeding isnt nearly as hard on the males as it is on the females so they dont have to be quite as big.

 

[aburningflame]

miami - please tell me this is normal curvature

also - im not sure of the ewight of the albino. i dont have small hands. im not sure how much he weighs. i probably wont be breeding him.

normal het bell seems odd.
my whole plan was supersnow x patty

mack snow het patty x mack snow het patty

but i guess thats kind of ruined now

anyways, please tell me the normal is normal curvature.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

@Miami the Enigma is not the newest morph out on the market. Also regardless of how much out crossing you will not get rid of the the engima trait with geckos on the market today.

 

[MiamiLeos]

RR- I am optimistic that within the next 8 years or so we will have "normal" Enigmas. I feel it can be done. Seems like we are seeing more and more without the 'syndrome.' And thank you for pointing out my mistake, I went back and fixed my typo. What I meant to type was "one of" the newest morphs.

Flame- What I think I can see in the pic is something that sometimes happens with bad sheds as a hatchling. Once in a while, an area on the end of the tail will become dry and the skin will firm up. It can give them a small dent or curve in the tail, but when you feel it, you can tell the difference between just a bad shed as a hatchling, or a kinked tail. And there are plenty of decently priced Pattys and Snows out there, so theres no need to give up on the SS Patty you want to make. Shoot you could even go another step and make some SS/MS Bell Pattys

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I don't believe that neurological issues can be bred out of an animal. Look at how many spider balls are still having their issues. It's almost like saying i'm going to out breed for diabetes it just doesn't happen.

 

[MiamiLeos]

Mmk, well my knowledge of BPs is very limited so I'm not up to date with the progress of the Spiders. I suppose we can just agree to disagree on this one

 

[aburningflame]

miami - im sort of scared to touch the tail...ive touched the tail before but i usually would rather not.

anyways, what will the difference in feeling be?

 

[Jordan]

im not on anyone's side here... and i personally wouldnt breed a kinked tail leo. but like, i dont see how a kinked tail could be linked to any health issues to the gecko... considering its on the tail, you know, the thing that a gecko can just leave behind...
It doesnt seem to me that the tail could have much say on how healthy the geckos organs are. (i mean obviously i know a big tail is healthy, and needed for fat reserve). but my point is, a kinked tail is on the tail a detachable part of the animal. its like a human having something on their nail, cut the nail.

now i know this sounds like im sideing on the side of 'its okay to breed kinked tails'
but im NOT , i personally DONT breed kinked tails just for safety's sake. but just thought of this point as i am considering both sides of the argument.

 

[M_surinamensis]

but like, i dont see how a kinked tail could be linked to any health issues to the gecko...

A tail kink is a symptom. It indicates that something has happened which has caused the tail to grow in a way which is not normal.

There are multiple reasons why a tail can be kinked, multiple causes that lead to the same visible symptom.

They can result from injuries, a good nip by another gecko if they were being housed communally that caused a break between the bones of the tail that healed crooked. Or partial tail autotomy, where the tissue on one side of the tail separates while the other remains intact can cause a little regrowth that pushes the entire thing into a crooked direction.

They can result from incubation issues. If the animal develops folded inside the egg in an odd direction where there is not enough space for normal growth. In some cases os temperature fluxuations, it can alter the rate of cell division for a period of time, changing the development of the tissue which is growing during the period of changed temperatures- although for something like a tail kink, a temperature fluxuation would also likely result in limb abnormalities.

It can be the result of a genetic condition- however exactly what that genetic condition is can be difficult to determine. It might be a genetic change in the soft tissues, it might be a genetic change that makes the animal prone to abnormal calcium deposits, it might be a change to the connective tissue or lubricating fluids along the spinal column, it might be a genetic condition that changes the ability of the animal to metabolize calcium and the tail kink is a result of the regulation of available nutrients, it might be a change to the size or number of vertebra...

There are dozens, hundreds of underlying causes for a single visual symptom like a tail kink.

Some of them could never manifest in any other way or cannot be passed down through the genetics.

Some of them are genetic and might have a different strength of expression. One kink between two of the bones way down the tail is a pretty small problem. One kink between every vertebra all the way up the spine is a serious problem. Calcium deposits at every joint is a serious problem. An inability to properly metabolize nutrients required for healthy bone growth is a serious problem.

It is perfectly fine to breed an animal if it has a kinked tail as a known result of an injury- it had a perfectly fine tail, it got bit or dropped or some dope pinned it with a little ceramic cave and then it was broken and bloody and healed crooked.

If it is an unknown, hatched out that way or developed for no readily apparent and easily verified reason, then it is not okay to breed it because it might be genetic.

The risk is tremendous. The gain is nonexistent. Healthy, normal leopard geckos are all over the place for low prices. There is no reason to breed an animal with deformities. Or any other health issues. Only an unscrupulous scumbag or someone who is profoundly ignorant would propagate animals using stock that should have been rubberstamped as defective.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the way to clean bloodlines by introducing new untainted blood? So if his male has a kinked tail and his female doesn't he runs the risk of having a clutch 50/50 kinked and not right? You could cull the kinked ones, then take the unkined ones and outcross again to further clean the gene pool right... until eventually he'd have babies that were descended of his kinked tail but no longer carry the trait for kinked tail?

It is Wikipedia, but at the time I am posting the links, they're accurate enough to correct you on why you're wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_relationship

Not every trait is a simple recessive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Mendelian_inheritance

Not every trait necessarily follows Mendelian laws for the method of inheritance.

Since tail kinks have not been mapped, and since there are multiple potential causes for tail kinks which may not be genetically identical (think tremper and las vegas albinism) the method you outlined above would not do anything except potentially spread a recessive genetic kink into the general population as you unloaded offspring who were not visibly displaying the trait.

If you want to keep a few thousand leopard geckos across fifteen odd generations though, you could probably get a pretty good idea of the genetics involved if you were bright enough to do the right test pairings. Pretty big investment in time, effort and money just to determine that you have produced a sub-line that doesn't carry the genetics for a kinked tail though, considering the ready availability of stock that wouldn't require similar lengths. It is massively easier to just buy a different gecko for a breeding project than it is to begin the process of proving a negative using test breedings.

Although if you have a few hundred thousand dollars laying around, I'll happily make a couple phone calls to people with the existing lab equipment required to really get into leopard gecko gene mapping and knock you up a blood test for any single trait you want.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I don't believe that neurological issues can be bred out of an animal. Look at how many spider balls are still having their issues. It's almost like saying i'm going to out breed for diabetes it just doesn't happen.

Just to add my 2 cents on this arguement from dog/rabbit breeding knowledge (since what I know is dogs & rabbits) you can't totally breed out a genetic trait you can only dilute it to a minimal amount. But like Miami said, when you sell those minute carriers to some one who has a dog that has a stronger degree of that same trait you run the risk of bringing it to the surface because now you have to matching strains which would make it a dominant trait. Then you truly are breeding backwards... you're increasing the defect. The only way to assure that it is decreased to a minimal amount is to only ever breed that line with constant outcrosses (but you risk losing type) until you get to a non-symptomatic animal, but that animal will always be a carrier no matter if your 10 generations beyond non-symptomatic or 100 generations past non-symptomatic. You can not remove DNA onec it's been introduced.

Anywho, that's my understanding of it...

M_Suri, I completely understand what you're saying. I think the task would be twofold wouldn't it because don't you have to figure out if it is genetic defect or metobolic issue? If it's illness that is causing the kink, you would have to determine the illness that could produce that as a symptom, but even with illness it could still be a genetic propencity like you were saying with immunity or calcium processes, etc. If it was genetic, you would have to be able to map it to isolate and hope to "remove" it from your line from non-symptomatic carriers?

Genetics are so odd.

 

[Reborn]

just a quick question. Is it considered genetic with temp flucuation? I dont agree with breeding them as there are 1000s of other perfectly healthy leos out there to breed. Just coz one you have has a curl tail(i have one) doesnt mean you have to breed it. I feel that there are so many great ones out there that are more then breeding worthy that theres no reason what so ever to breed a risky mutation like that.

I agree with the post that says how can the tail be linked with problems. How can we be 100% its the tail curl thats causing it? Couldnt it be the temp flucuations? Or poor genetics all together? obvisouly at first it was but like if one randomly appears?

My curl tail eats just fine, is growing great, is 100% healthy i had spoken with the breeder and they can say 99.9% that it was temp flucutaion and not genetics as it was the first one they have ever hatched out like that but because theres the .1% chance i wont risk it personally.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Is it considered genetic with temp flucuation?

No.

BUT!

As you yourself indicated, it is pretty well impossible to actually determine exactly what caused an abnormality when looking at a single animal that hatched out that way. It might be a temperature problem (or for kinks, more commonly a positional growth problem) or it might be genetic.

Since genetic is the bigger risk, the more problematic cause, animals where it is not known to be a result of a physical trauma should always be treated as if the cause were genetic. It is responsible to treat them as a worst case scenario- because it is the only approach which completely removes the possibility of additional harm being done.

 

[Reborn]

Even tho im not planning to breed one tail kink gecko this is definatly a interesting topic. My breeder is almost surtain as my guy was the only one in the incubator at that time it was a hava-bator or smething like that(cheap one as males are often only small groups) and at the time was a heat wave which bumped up his temps a bit and they didnt notice till it was to late. Would you assume temp flucuation or genetics with that?(just to repeat myself not planning to breed him, just curious)

 

[M_surinamensis]

Would you assume temp flucuation or genetics with that?(just to repeat myself not planning to breed him, just curious)

I wouldn't assume anything.

Incubation/development snafus are the most likely, based on probability and with unknown lineage.

However, especially in leopard geckos where there have been numerous cases of genetic kinking, a genetic cause is on the table fairly high in the probabilities.

Look at it this way... what kind of chance, as a percentage or a ratio, would it need to be for you to draw a line between acceptable and unacceptable risk? Keep in mind that assuming it is an incubation problem would allow someone to treat it like every other gecko when it comes to breeding projects. If there was a fifty fifty chance, not many people would take it, but what about a twenty five percent chance? Ten? Five? One? Just how low do the odds have to be before someone risks screwing with an entire captive population for decades to come? I think it needs to be treated like an absolute. Any possibility, no matter how minor or remote, of a genetic cause and it needs to be treated as if it were genetic. The potential negative consequences just outweigh any arguments to the contrary.

 

[aburningflame]

thanks for the information - this threads been pretty insightful

 

[Jordan]

wow, cheers. M_surinamensis for all that info. it was an interesting read. though you answered my question at the word 'symptom' lol. that just hadnt crossed my mind for some reason lol cheers.

 

[MiamiLeos]

miami - im sort of scared to touch the tail...ive touched the tail before but i usually would rather not.

anyways, what will the difference in feeling be?

No need to be scared to touch the tail, they dont just come off randomly, you really have to alarm them, esp when they are adults. Just hold the male and get some good feels around the kink of his tail. You should be able to feel it going all the way through to the other side, like the whole thing is really kinked. On the female, do the same thing, but my guess would be that you will only be able to really feel it on the surface of that one side of the tail, indicating that it was just a dry shed, not a kink. But really the best way to do it is by comparing the way they feel. A kinked tail really FEELS like a kinked tail. Just go for it, as long as you dont squeeze really hard, your leos should be just fine