Tail Kinks frowned upon?

[MiamiLeos]

i read the first page - didnt realize there was more - im currently reading it.

have tail kinked geckos shown any signs of anything detrimental?
surely early enigma breeders saw signs of enigma syndrome?

do genetically tail kinked geckos have a problem that im unaware of?


sorry for being seemingly rude before - i wasnt trying to.

is there a tail kinked gecko syndrome? ive been trying to google it but cant find anything about it

Yes, when tail kinks were far more present around 10 years ago or so, there were signs that they were linked to issues within the species. They first appeared in the Murphys Patternless as a result of inbreeding. The MP was really the first "morph" leo and being that is is a recessive trait, breeders kept breeding patty to patty to patty and so on without introducing any new, strong genes into the group (because this would yield normal het patternless offspring). So eventually the gene pool of the Patty got so small that geckos started coming out with kinks. Later these geckos were found to have severely compromised immune systems and natural instincts, such as feeding and shedding responses. This is likely where your Patty has his tail kink from, genetics. There is not a "syndeome" per say that connects to a tail kink. It is more related to internal damage, especially with the immune system. To avoid replecating these weakened conditions seen in tail kinked geckos, breeders have stopped working with them.

 

[JordanAng420]

Here's more reading material, as requested (this one is long, but good info):
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=9844&highlight=culled

 

[aburningflame]

ok miami - the immune system point is a very good one.

this is the information i was looking for - as far as i was concerned there was nothing wrong with a tail kinked gecko.

my patty has been in a tank with a normal female.
will she be stressed if i seperate them?

they sleep together all the time.

if i breed the patty with the kinked tail to the normal would that be a problem?
or does it only apply to patty x patty ?

 

[JordanAng420]

I am not criticizing. I am criticizing people who breed enigmas.

Read your two sentences again. They contradict each other.

IBut i just dont see how a tail kink is detrimental to the gecko.
A gecko with a tail kink can be healthy and happy can it not?

Sure, a gecko with a tail kink can be happy and healthy. Heck, I have a gecko with a CURLY tail. Would I ever breed her? No. Why? Because I don't think it's right to unnecessarily hatch deformed hatchlings for my own curiosity.

I am not criticizing. I am criticizing people who breed enigmas.

But i just dont see how a tail kink is detrimental to the gecko.
A gecko with a tail kink can be healthy and happy can it not?

My gecko has a slight tail kink and eats normally, walks normally, has a very heatlhy appetite.

I dont understand why the tail kink is looked at as a end all of the gecko.
Help me understand?

It's not the end of all geckos. It could potentially be the end of certain "pure" lines of geckos. You breed your geckos, find out the tail kink is genetic, and "adopt" out the offspring. You no longer have control of what happens to the offspring. Therefore, you are polluting the gene pool.

 

[JordanAng420]

Do you cull geckos with a tail kink?

If I hatched one, and couldn't keep it as a pet, I absolutely would.

 

[aburningflame]

what i mean is that im not criticizing people in general. but i do have a problem with enigma breeders because the geckos have a very good chance of having a horrible life.


if i breed the patty with the normal and the babies dont have tail kinks..would they be ok?

or should i just stay away ?

 

[JordanAng420]

Tell me something...

You have a problem with people who breed enigmas because the offspring could potentially display problems. In your opinion, enigmas should not be bred.

Here you are with your gecko who has a kinked tail, and just because the general health of the gecko isn't compromised, you feel it is your right to produce whatever curly tailed deformed animal you possibly can.

I personally produced 4 enigma hatchlings this year.

What makes you so special???

 

[aburningflame]

i am just looking for information.
you do not have to be so rude

not everyone is as experienced as you.

you are criticizing me for wanting to breed a kinked tail gecko
but you produce enigmas...arent you doing the same thing as me then?

i dont understand :S

 

[MiamiLeos]

what i mean is that im not criticizing people in general. but i do have a problem with enigma breeders because the geckos have a very good chance of having a horrible life.


if i breed the patty with the normal and the babies dont have tail kinks..would they be ok?

or should i just stay away ?

No one can tell you what to do, you need to make your own educated decisions if you wish to be a breeder. Because you are still asking if it ok to breed this animal and still criticizing Enigma breeders, my beliefs are becoming stronger in that you have not done enough reading and studying on the Leopard Gecko species in general. Before making an arguement for or against anything, in order to not seem dense, you must actually put the time and energy into studying the subject.

 

[MiamiLeos]

i am just looking for information.
you do not have to be so rude

not everyone is as experienced as you.

you are criticizing me for wanting to breed a kinked tail gecko
but you produce enigmas...arent you doing the same thing as me then?

i dont understand :S

NO. Producing healthy, clean blooded Enigmas is NOTHING like producing a tail kinked animal. The Enigma is a NEW dominant morph, one of the newest in the leo gene pool. Are you aware of this? As with every new morph, there are things that need to be worked out. We are working them out and making GREAT PROGRESS with the Enigma "syndrome." RT's first albinos were weaklings with high environmental sensitivities. You can obvoiusly see that the albinos of today are not as such. Things take time. I suggest you stop analyzing and criticizing things that you quite obviously do not understand.

 

[aburningflame]

I admit i do not understand - that is why im researching!

you guys dont have to be so harsh - im trying to understand.
i spend a lot of my spare time reading and researching - im not a dense kid.

Part of understanding is making an argument for or against and/or criticizing something and being rebutted against.

Im trying to understand - but some breeders in here are very very offensive.

maybe its pride, i do want to produce healthy animals.

im just heartbroken over having to throw out her next eggs and seperating them. theyve been with each other for 6mths and sleep together and lick each other and stuff - i feel horrible for having to do it. i know its the right thing to do but its hard for me ok?

-do you remember your first hatchlings? I still have yet to have those...
you guys dont have to be so harsh in your criticisms. im extremely excited about breeding and have researched quite a bit - its not easy to find out all the information - im just learning the morphs and about genetics ok?



these arent just commodities to me - i really care about them. i dont want her to be stressed when she loses her tank mate - i have 3 geckos and i have a connection to them - theyre m y first geckos and i really care about them

sorry for wanting to produce a hatchling

 

[JordanAng420]

you are criticizing me for wanting to breed a kinked tail gecko
but you produce enigmas...arent you doing the same thing as me then?

i dont understand :S

What is it that you don't understand? I don't see it as the same thing, sorry. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I am not going to get into an enigma/deformity/culling debate with you, especially in public. You will lose.

Good luck with your business. :main_thumbsup:

 

[MiamiLeos]

i am just looking for information.
you do not have to be so rude

not everyone is as experienced as you.

you are criticizing me for wanting to breed a kinked tail gecko
but you produce enigmas...arent you doing the same thing as me then?

i dont understand :S

The only rude statement that I have seen here was one involving the words "you people." I would think since you claim to just be looking for information and you realize that you are not experienced that you would respect the beliefs and opinions of others who are.

 

[JordanAng420]

-do you remember your first hatchlings? I still have yet to have those...
you guys dont have to be so harsh in your criticisms. im extremely excited about breeding and have researched quite a bit - its not easy to find out all the information - im just learning the morphs and about genetics ok? sorry for wanting to produce a hatchling

You know what? I'm sorry for being so harsh. I realize what it's like to be in your shoes. I hope you are super sucessful with your breeding. I just want those that DO decide to breed to do it for the right reasons, and I hope that they keep the bloodlines clean, and free of any obvious i(ssues.

I'm sorry I was kind of a crab.

 

[MiamiLeos]

I do not know anyone who feels that arguing is a way of learning or understanding. And honestly if you are just starting to learn the morphology and genetics of the species, there is no reason aside from personal gratification that you should be breeding. Sorry if it seems harsh, but I believe many others would agree.

 

[aburningflame]

miami - i did admit it was rude a few posts earlier and i apologize again.

i have a very strong dislike for enigma breeders - but this was probably due to being maleducated.

i will not personally breed enigmas because i am inexperienced and could probably not clean the bloodlines.

i will also not breed the tail kinked gecko because of genetics. but its just upsetting to have to seperate them.

will the female miss him? will her health be affected? should i buy her a new male gecko?

 

[MiamiLeos]

Ok, then lets not criticize those who do understand the morph and produce nice quality Enigmas As far as separating them, she will not miss him and he will be fine too. In their natural emvironment, leos only come together to mate. They are solitary by nature and myself and several others who I've discussed this subject with concur that as a species they do thrive much better when kept individually. That is not to say that they can not live in groups, but just from what I've observed and several others whom I know well in this field, they seem to prefer to have their own space. The only reason for you to buy another male is if you want to breed your female. She will not need another male, that's just a breeding decision on your part.

 

[aburningflame]

did you start breeding as a business? or was it a personal project?

for me - its for personal gratification - i have 1 male and 1 female.
i guess i will be keepin the tail kink only as a pet...hes gorgeous i love him

do you guys think the female will get stressed without him around?

i will post a picture of him - just confirm it is a tail kink for me?

 

[aburningflame]

ok miami. that makes me feel a lot better. i know some animals keep in communities and may die if others leave.

 

[MiamiLeos]

I started breading because I love the species and I felt I had something to offer the Leopard Gecko community. I had kept them purely as pets for 7 years before I even considered the possiblity of breeding. In that time I gained a wealth of knowledge about the morphs and genetics and husbandry from text sources as well as hands on experience from my pets. My pets were never bred as they were not breeding quality. I suppose it can be considered a business. There is profit and expenses and labor, but it was not started for profit. I started breeding because I felt I could produce exceptionally high quality animals and help clear the gene pools of some morphs. I did not just throw two random geckos together because I wanted to have a baby gecko. The point is though, I was knowledgeable about what I was doing and knew exactly what I was getting into. I'm sure we can all tell you if it's a kink if you post a pic.