Thinking about the Eclipse

[RAZERWIREREPTILES]

Ok well as some of you might know I am working with a nice little raptor group this season. Looking thru the leos for sale on the net i am finding alot of Raptors or het raptors being listed as raptor het eclipse, het raptor/eclipse. The raptor and the eclipse are the same morph just the albino form and the non albino form correct? Please correct me if I am wrong here I am trying to figure out if I have this right or not.

So the project i am going to be working on next season will be with this male I really am hopeing in the end to have close to his patteren with the eclipse eyes here he is

*He really seems washed out in the photo he is a lot brighter in person*
This is the part where i need a little advice.
First season= That male X RAPTOR female

The Hatchlings should come out normal looking het raptor?

I will prob incubate thies eggs 50/50 for male and female i hope of getting as close to that pattern as possible

Now assuming i get the pattern i am looking for in both male and female. I will take thies 2 both normale het raptor. so the second gen pairing would be
Norm het raptor X Norm het raptor

This pairing should give me 25% norm, 50% normal het raptor, 25% raptor/eclipse?

And from this point i just keep working the line breeding to try and get this pattern i am looking for correct?

Any input is greatly appreacated I am tring to figure out if i have this morph info down or are there some other workings of this morph i am missing please let me know what you thin Thank you all again for the input.

Razerwirereptiles

 

[Halley]

The raptor and the eclipse are the same morph just the albino form and the non albino form correct?

yes, the only differnce bewteen a eclipse and a raptor is the tremper albino gene.

First season= That male X RAPTOR female

If I read this right, the male has no link to the raptor lines.

The Hatchlings should come out normal looking het raptor?

This is correct as long as my above statement is correct, you are correct. The babies should also show some tang coloration.

Norm het raptor X Norm het raptor

This pairing should give me 25% norm, 50% normal het raptor, 25% raptor/eclipse?

Sort of, you will not be able to tell which offspring are het, and which are not, and your percentages are off a little as well. Here is what you should get.

56.25% WT, 66% het Eclipse, 66% het Tremper, could also be labeled as 66% het Raptor
18.75% Eclipse, 66% het Tremper, or 66% het R.A.P.T.O.R.
18.75% Tremper, 66% het Eclipse, or R.A.P.T.O.R.
6.25% R.A.P.T.O.R.

And from this point i just keep working the line breeding to try and get this pattern i am looking for correct?

Yes as soon as you get raptors, you should be able to just line breed for that pattern.

 

[RAZERWIREREPTILES]

Wow thank you for the input yes the founding male is a norm no raptor blood in him. In your last line you say as soon as i get raptors i can just line breed from there but wouldnt the raptor come out with the red eyes.....or when you say raptors are you just reffering to the raptor trait of the solid eyes? thanks again for the help. are you useing the wizard for your % calculations? if so is there a good site that breaks down how to use that as i tend to get confused as to what i should put in there and what not the % that i came up with was just looking at a punnet with the top and side being
Nr, N meaning mormal appearing r het raptor i know this is a shot version but the wizard always leaves me thinking i missed something lol

 

[boutiquegecko]

Nick, I am super tired here-long flight etc etc. How is a raptor and an eclipse the same morph? Only the gene is showing albino in the raptor. A eclipse gecko doesn't have the same genes other than the eye gene, so how is it the same as a raptor? Unless I miss understood the question?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

They are the same genetics, but two "morphs". The Eclipse gene is the solid eyed morph, the Raptor is the Albino version. If you see "het Eclipse" or "het Raptor" it means the same thing either way. That the gecko carries the Eclipse gene, and patterning traits.

 

[boutiquegecko]

I thought he meant the overall look of the gecko. To me an orange patternless stripe with eclipse eyes is the equivalent of non albino raptor. But add albino and the eyes turn red-hence raptor.

 

[Halley]

Wow thank you for the input yes the founding male is a norm no raptor blood in him. In your last line you say as soon as i get raptors i can just line breed from there but wouldn’t the raptor come out with the red eyes.....or when you say raptors are you just referring to the raptor trait of the solid eyes?

Yes. I am saying that when you get some raptors (meaning red eyes) I would just line breed from the pattern trait. I might even cross the male in a few times, to make the pattern you want stronger. If that makes sense.

thanks again for the help. Are you using the wizard for your % calculations? If so is there a good site that breaks down how to use that as i tend to get confused as to what i should put in there and what not the % that i came up with was just looking at a Punnett with the top and side being

Yes, I use that, it makes it faster than my punnett squares. Just say how many traits you have, punch those in, fill in the het, homo, and WT, click the button on the bottom, and your done.

Nick, I am super tired here-long flight etc etc. How is a raptor and an eclipse the same morph? Only the gene is showing albino in the raptor. A eclipse gecko doesn't have the same genes other than the eye gene, so how is it the same as a raptor? Unless I miss understood the question?

I thought he meant the overall look of the gecko. To me an orange patternless stripe with eclipse eyes is the equivalent of non albino raptor. But add albino and the eyes turn red-hence raptor.

I guess I could have put this better. Basically what I mean by this, is what Dan said. They come from the same line, so I guess they way I think of them is the same. With everything but the “actual” genes in them, meaning the eclipse, and tremper alleles. I suppose most eclipse geckos (non-raptor) come in more of a jungle pattern, but theriocally you should be able to have one that looks like a raptor without the red eyes.

I don’t know how well I really explained that, if I missed something let me know.

 

[tsavage]

so what are you using instead of punnett squares

 

[Halley]

so what are you using instead of punnett squares

http://www.geneticswizard.com/

Does the same thing, just does it faster. You do need a basic understand of genetics to use it though, and it doesn’t give you percentage chance of geckos. Like 66%, and 50%. You still have to figure that out.

 

[godzillizard]

the genetics wizard works well for true/simple recessives, and co-dom/dominant traits, but were way past that at this point! Don't plan according to those results or you'll be incredibly dissapointed with the ACTUAL results...unless your only dealing with simple recessives, co-doms and dominant traits...it shows probability, NOT an exact science

Banded Raptors are very easy to produce--If you breed your banded het Raptors together, you might even get them this year. But for even better odds--try breeding a banded Raptor to banded het Raptor females. Or even better yet--cross a red eyed banded Tremper to afghanicus females--year 2 would be incredible! (not to mention extremely healthy/vigorous) I'm surprised the non-outcrossed Raptors haven't had fecundity issues yet...

 

[boutiquegecko]

I know the eclipse gene is the same, I was going by pattern look. Now that I'm thinking straight, shouldn't we technically call any patterned raptor, radar and lv strain an eclipse tremper, bell or lv, seeing as they are not exhibiting the patternles stripe trait? Eh, now that I think about it I think that's already been mentioned before.
What's a fecundity issue?

 

[godzillizard]

fecundity is the animals ability to reproduce itself (potency)--look at the leachie world--it's scary what traits/issues inbreeding can cause to surface/express...people say you can't make an omellette without breaking a few eggs--but noone thinks about the dishes, the gas for the truck to get the eggs to the store, the energy to heat the oven, the energy to grow the other omellette ingredients, etc. etc. There is way more going on than we can ever concieve, let alone understand!

I know the eclipse gene is the same, I was going by pattern look. Now that I'm thinking straight, shouldn't we technically call any patterned raptor, radar and lv strain an eclipse tremper, bell or lv, seeing as they are not exhibiting the patternles stripe trait?

No! Eclipse is already a personal trade name for non-albino "RAPTORS". We need something not already tied to a line--like "void-eyed" If a gecko dispalys some pattern other than traditional banded, it's only a matter of time (and the right pairing) before it produces the patternless stripe pattern. Patternless stripe is essentially the next 'step' in pattern evolution/development.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

We allready have that. "Ruby/Red Eyed"- Albino(Banded), Jungle Albino, Reverse Stripe Albino, Striped Albino etc.

 

[boutiquegecko]

That's what I was getting at Dan, thanks.
Brian, eclipse comes from ps/prs, not prs/ps from eclipse, at least from all the test breedings and pattern evolution we've seen. The raptor just happens to exhibit both the pattern and the eclipse eye at the same time.

 

[Paco]

That's what I was getting at Dan, thanks.
Brian, eclipse comes from ps/prs, not prs/ps from eclipse, at least from all the test breedings and pattern evolution we've seen. The raptor just happens to exhibit both the pattern and the eclipse eye at the same time.

What?? Can you clarify what you are trying to say? Isn't Eclipse just an eye Trait that was associated with Tremper Line Animals(I know there are non het Tremper Eclipse's now)? So in theory an Eclipse Should be able to Produce both, PS and PRS because the genetics are there, wheter or not they are displayed visually. I have seen several PS/PRS Eclipse's for sale this year allready. Your wording is a bit confusing. There are also plenty of breeder's who have Non Tremper Non Eclipse PS/PRS leos. I had my Arguement about this a while back, How can you have a Patternelss Animal if it has a Stripe. A Stripe is Pattern. But thats another issue. How big is Your Raptor/ Eclipse program?

 

[godzillizard]

not all doors only open one way If you breed a raptor to jungles, or better yet, breed a raptor to bandeds--you'll get bandeds, jungles, stripes, reverse stripes, and patternless stripes. I've set up a couple groups of patterned (banded, aberrant, & jungles) Raptors and hets just to see the crazy pattern variation.

We allready have that. "Ruby/Red Eyed"- Albino(Banded), Jungle Albino, Reverse Stripe Albino, Striped Albino etc.

I was talking about what to call the eye trait itself, now that it's independant of Tremper strain albinos. The issue I have with calling them red/ruby eyed is that the LV solid ("eclipse") eye is so dark, its black even in albino form.

 

[Halley]

the genetics wizard works well for true/simple recessives, and co-dom/dominant traits, but were way past that at this point! Don't plan according to those results or you'll be incredibly dissapointed with the ACTUAL results...unless your only dealing with simple recessives, co-doms and dominant traits...it shows probability, NOT an exact science

Banded Raptors are very easy to produce--If you breed your banded het Raptors together, you might even get them this year. But for even better odds--try breeding a banded Raptor to banded het Raptor females. Or even better yet--cross a red eyed banded Tremper to afghanicus females--year 2 would be incredible! (not to mention extremely healthy/vigorous) I'm surprised the non-outcrossed Raptors haven't had fecundity issues yet...

That is all very good advice, and something you should take into account with this project.

 

[boutiquegecko]

When you breed a reverse stripe to a stripe you create a patternless stripe. That unlocks the eclipse gene. There have been lots of threads about this. Here's a link to AM
http://www.amgecko.com/breeders_patstripe.html
Dan at groovygecko and Kelli at Hiss have both also proven that if breeding this animal to a het raptor produces raptors. So, this also applies to the bell and lv strain albinos. It's the home made way to get the version for any of those strains, without going the route of proving an eclipse non het tremper. If you look at a patternless stripe, the stripe is on the tail, not the body. The animal exhibits both the stripe and no stripe at the same time.
Tremper just happened to unlock the eclipse gene first, which makes sense as he had prob the largest collection of jungles and stripes out there, resulting in reverse stripes, resulting in patternless stripes, resulting in eclipse. Does that make sense? The pattern goes like this-banded, jungle, stripe, reverse stripe, patternless stripe, eclipse. Though eclipse is not fully understood really yet as far as a classification of recessive etc.
Raptors and radars just happen to exhibit both the patternless stripe look and the eclipse gene at the same time.

 

[godzillizard]

The animal exhibits both the stripe and no stripe at the same time.

this is not accurate--the pattenrless stripe is the product of stripe and reverse stripe, not a fusion of the 2!!! Trust me, I have a very good understanding of the lineage and genes at work--I've too have explained it to the best of my experience a number of times in other posts--normal bandeds led to aberrants, aberrants led to jungles, jungles led to stripes, stripes led to reverse stripes, reverse stripes led to pattenless stripes (what I call 'super' stripes) and super stripes led to the eye trait--and anyone who says its recessive (or even acts recessive), is flat out lying. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that the "new" patternless thats responsible for the patternless stripe appearance in the (R)aptor, was at the very least a descendant of HQ line redstripes--thats why Dan's and Alberto's projects had such similar results--they all came from the same tree, just different branches...From my experience with these animals--the patternless stripe appearance causes some inactive DNA to occaisionally allow the red eyes to surface--whether the geckos producing the eggs exhibit the pattern or not doesn't matter--only that they came from animals that did...

I'm not saying I have all the answers, i'm just saying what seems obvious to me after a couple years of working with these animals. peace, love and healthy critters! Brian

 

[boutiquegecko]

Brian, then you have a good grasp of the patterning. I think patternless stripe is sort of a backwards name and Alberto says that himself in his link. All I'm saying is that when you look at a ps you see both so I can understand why the name patternless stripe.
That's interesting your opinion about eclipse not being recessive. Jeremy has a recent thread on opinions regarding this. Have you chimed in, I can't remember.