Tremper cross with Bell

[fallen_angel]

Well we have a Mack Snow fascio. cross Enigma that has a 50% chanca to be het. for Bell.. we didn't buy her for that reason, because we don't have any Bells in our breeding groups, so we really don't care either way.. but she is breeding with a Super Snow that has a 50% chance to be het. Tremper. If anything, further down the line, we may like to make Trempers, all the while, Bell could end up in the lines as well. I suppose we could get a Bell albino and try to prove her out, but we have no interest in that since we really don't work with Bells anyway.

I think when it comes to 50% chance het. for this or 66% chance het. for that, when you have no interest in proving them out, they get lost in the genes anyway. There are probably TONS of animals out there that are carrying more than one albino strain that people don't know about. There really is no need to say "well five generations ago, there was a possible het. Bell" unless someone bought an animal from you and hatched something they weren't expecting.

 

[Nigel4less]

There are probably TONS of animals out there that are carrying more than one albino strain that people don't know about. There really is no need to say "well five generations ago, there was a possible het. Bell" unless someone bought an animal from you and hatched something they weren't expecting.

I have no problem taking up Table space or Rack space, by telling someone that something is 66% Pos. het Tremper, 66% Pos. Het Rainwater, and 66% Het Bell. Personally thats why I generally only buy from very close friends (No offense to anyone) or reputable breeders that I trust.

 

[fallen_angel]

same here

 

[Gazz]

so you think it is possible and worth a try?

Yes very possible.But it's your time,leo's and money.So wheather it's worth a try is up to you.

 

[Gazz]

Gazz likes to get a rise out of the Forum

I just reply to a post giving a answer how i saw it.And there's you saying it's unethical like the sky will fall.If you breed two albino strains to gether it can just get confuing it not unethical.Unethical is breeding from a disabled or ill or under weight leo's.Breeding two albino strains dosen't result in death or illness of offspring there for not unethical.You just need to know how to ID the albino strains.

 

[Nigel4less]

I just reply to a post giving a answer how i saw it.And there's you saying it's unethical like the sky will fall.If you breed two albino strains to gether it can just get confuing it not unethical.Unethical is breeding from a disabled or ill or under weight leo's.Breeding two albino strains dosen't result in death or illness of offspring there for not unethical.You just need to know how to ID the albino strains.

Well Gazz, since you seem like you've already done the cross. Why don't share your results or pictures(it seems like you seem to know everything and anything about Leopard geckos, but can never share a picture or two) What happens when the offspring show characteristics of both Albino strains? and what happens when they reach the general pet market?... What happens when we have RAPDARs and LasTrem Blazing Blizzards and Patternless Albinos?

 

[thestack510]

In my opinion it's a waste of time to combine strains. Good luck to you if you try it though. Personally, I don't have time for any wonder geckos.

 

[Paco]

Yes very possible.But it's your time,leo's and money.So wheather it's worth a try is up to you.

If this were possible Shouldn't the Double Homo happen when the Albino's are crossed in the first breeding? They are all T+ but they produce normal DH, when crossed? Same in the ball python world for several strains and morphs.

Homo Albino X Homo Albino= 100% Homo Albino but we do not get these outcomes why?

I would like to hear from a few of the people with more knowledge of genetics to learn Why certain Albino strains are not compatible even though they test the same for T+ or T- form of Albinism.

 

[Gazz]

Well Gazz, since you seem like you've already done the cross.

When did i say i've done it.I just gave the expected result based on the genetics.

It seems like you seem to know everything and anything about Leopard geckos, but can never share a picture or two

When did pictures become proof of knowledge ?.So if somone showed you a picture of a Snow eclipse enigma but didn't know there stuff.And somone didn't have a picture but did know there stuff.You would take the word of the one that had a picture ?.I THINK NOT!.

What happens when the offspring show characteristics of both Albino strains? and what happens when they reach the general pet market?...

Same as what happed with the Blizzardpatternless.Confusion in most cases but no harm done.

What happens when we have RAPDARs and LasTrem Blazing Blizzards and Patternless Albinos?

Talbinobalbino eclipse patternless striped X Talbino = Talbino HET Balbino,Eclipse.Talbinobalbino eclipse patternless striped X Balbino = Balbino HET Talbino,Eclipse.Same kinda result regarding Talbinobalbino blizzard and Talbinobalbino patternless.We already have a fair amount of enigmas that are double HET two albino strains.Or expressing one strain and HET another there seems to be no problem we this.And a lot of leo's in the UK are often carrying more than one albino strain.

 

[Gazz]

If this were possible Shouldn't the Double Homo happen when the Albino's are crossed in the first breeding? They are all T+ but they produce normal DH, when crossed? Same in the ball python world for several strains and morphs.[/QOUTE]

No coz there simple recessive and incompatible.If the albino strains was dominant then you would get a Talbinobalbino in the first breeding but there not.

Homo Albino X Homo Albino= 100% Homo Albino but we do not get these outcomes why?

The albino strain are as you know simple recessive.If we bred them and got albino offspring that would make them compatible and life would be easyer coz that would mean there the same albino strain.

 

[Nigel4less]

And a lot of leo's in the UK are often carrying more than one albino strain.

I honestly don't care what breeders do in the UK and in the Rest of Europe, as crossing of the Albino strains has been happening there for quite a while. But when someone in the US wants to cross Albino strains... it effects the majority of the Leopard Gecko market including Europe not the other way around.



Anyways I`m going to stop right there as like I stated before I don't have time to deal with someone who knows "EVERYTHING".

 

[chazthaking2]

(whisper) i told you people would get upset. This whole thing began as a question on why people dont do it and for the rest of you out there that may think im some rookie im not. i just wanted to know what the public thought and if that was the plan to cross albinos i would take full responsibility and make sure i know what is going on with the gene. no one gets mad at ron for bringing out the most confusing of everything gecko into the market. and yes i have 30 geckos but you know what, i put more time into my geckos then anything else. the order is always geckos bills then me, because i can survive and i can stall on bills but the geckos need me and that is what i got in this for. i love genetics a lot so i always wondered about the crossing. i have planned and put together myself as a 22 year old my entire business and i only plan to do it right. the day i decide and if i would sell the crosses that entire project will have paper work on it from the beginning parents until the time i sell them and stop at that point. there is no reason for people to be upset and get all bent. the only thing that can mess up a market is crooks trying to scam everyone and that is far from being me.

 

[chazthaking2]

i went to a show not to long ago and one of the guys is telling customers that he is selling geckos for lower prices because he is trying to get rid of the 2008 geckos and bring in the 2009. now that person is a person i wouldnt take a free gecko from. this business is my passion and if this entire market went to crap i would still have geckos because i love them just that much. you can't sell 2008 for 2009 they arent cars that pisses me off and the person you should be getting mad at. yes i want to make money because to survive in america you have to make money, so thats what i want to do but i am far from putting any gecko through pain. animals are the closes anything to heaven for me. they are the greatest so caring for them is number one. but anymore argument about this topic is welcomed. because sooner or later something great will happen. i dont know what but i believe it will

 

[Baoh]

i went to a show not to long ago and one of the guys is telling customers that he is selling geckos for lower prices because he is trying to get rid of the 2008 geckos and bring in the 2009. now that person is a person i wouldnt take a free gecko from. this business is my passion and if this entire market went to crap i would still have geckos because i love them just that much. you can't sell 2008 for 2009 they arent cars that pisses me off and the person you should be getting mad at. yes i want to make money because to survive in america you have to make money, so thats what i want to do but i am far from putting any gecko through pain. animals are the closes anything to heaven for me. they are the greatest so caring for them is number one. but anymore argument about this topic is welcomed. because sooner or later something great will happen. i dont know what but i believe it will

There's nothing inappropriate about what that vendor is doing. No more or less appropriate than your behavior (which I find no fault in).

 

[chazthaking2]

i dont think so either just it didnt seem about passion to me but i guess it is what it is

 

[Paco]

If this were possible Shouldn't the Double Homo happen when the Albino's are crossed in the first breeding? They are all T+ but they produce normal DH, when crossed? Same in the ball python world for several strains and morphs.[/QOUTE]

No coz there simple recessive and incompatible.If the albino strains was dominant then you would get a Talbinobalbino in the first breeding but there not.



The albino strain are as you know simple recessive.If we bred them and got albino offspring that would make them compatible and life would be easyer coz that would mean there the same albino strain.

Gazz...

You did not answer the Question, Why are they Incompatible? There is a reason.

All the Years the reptile Industry has had with all the incompatible Albino strains and we have yet to see a Double Homo Albino? Why is this? Because it most Likely can't be done. Just Like the Homo Spider Ball, has not happend yet.

Why? It should be easy from your genetic out comes. There should be several Thousands of them out there if it were that simple. Just Like all the Homo enigmas there should be by now.

Like I said before I want input from the Experts who have a better understanding of genetics and what Exactly is going on that prevents the albino strains from not being compatible. It's more than a Simple recessive trait at work.

I know what should come from genetic outcomes( I can post those up all day as well) but genetics is not always as cut and dry as the books or we would like to make it.

 

[Baoh]

Gazz...

You did not answer the Question, Why are they Incompatible? There is a reason.

All the Years the reptile Industry has had with all the incompatible Albino strains and we have yet to see a Double Homo Albino? Why is this? Because it most Likely can't be done. Just Like the Homo Spider Ball, has not happend yet.

Why? It should be easy from your genetic out comes. There should be several Thousands of them out there if it were that simple. Just Like all the Homo enigmas there should be by now.

Like I said before I want input from the Experts who have a better understanding of genetics and what Exactly is going on that prevents the albino strains from not being compatible. It's more than a Simple recessive trait at work.

I know what should come from genetic outcomes( I can post those up all day as well) but genetics is not always as cut and dry as the books or we would like to make it.

Because the genes are seemingly on different loci and the resulting phenotype of a genotype that is homozygous for both genes likely presents in the same way as one or the other, visually speaking. In other words, there's probably a strong chance we'd never know it if we saw it due to a sort of "overshadowing".

As for the Enigma, that also has a simple explanation. You'd have to have lots of people pairing Enigmas with Enigmas, raising up and keeping all of their offspring, and then breeding all of those offspring to easily identified non-Enigma mates, paying attention to losses as well as hatchlings from the beginning. Then you take all of that and do the math. Few, if any, people seem to be doing that because most are too busy building their own projects and getting screamed at to outcross, whether for meaningful or meaningless reasons. The current practices do not generate what you're asking for readily.

Then there's the growing number of people who seem to understand nothing about the genetics of their own animals, bigger/prominent breeders included, that stands in the way of understanding and impedes maximal progress, but I can change that about as easily as I can juggle buses.

 

[Paco]

Boah... Thanks that was the kind of explanation I was looking for.

I have a problem though. This was brought up in an Enigma thread a while back and still is not considered in the reptile breeding world very often or at all. Homozygous Lethal traits.

We will use the Spider Morph as Example. There has Not been a Homozygous Spider produced to date? Why? Been enough years and enough people who have worked with the trait and done Homo x Homo crossings to have at least seen 1.

also why are T+ and T- Albinos not compatible. In the Ball world there should be NO overshadowing between a T+ Carmel Albino and T- Albino. The looks are completly Different. But there is No Double Homo T+Carmel/T-Albino. Again Why? These 2 morphs have been out for years and have been crossed by several of the biggest breeders in the industry. But we still don't see a Double Homo animal to date. There seems to be More than genetic odds going on here.

Every Big breeder I have spoken to say's that a Double Homo animal would be Great Asset to any breeding collection because of the genetic power the animal would have

 

[Baoh]

Boah... Thanks that was the kind of explanation I was looking for.

I have a problem though. This was brought up in an Enigma thread a while back and still is not considered in the reptile breeding world very often or at all. Homozygous Lethal traits.

We will use the Spider Morph as Example. There has Not been a Homozygous Spider produced to date? Why? Been enough years and enough people who have worked with the trait and done Homo x Homo crossings to have at least seen 1.

also why are T+ and T- Albinos not compatible. In the Ball world there should be NO overshadowing between a T+ Carmel Albino and T- Albino. The looks are completly Different. But there is No Double Homo T+Carmel/T-Albino. Again Why? These 2 morphs have been out for years and have been crossed by several of the biggest breeders in the industry. But we still don't see a Double Homo animal to date. There seems to be More than genetic odds going on here.

Every Big breeder I have spoken to say's that a Double Homo animal would be Great Asset to any breeding collection because of the genetic power the animal would have

The homozygous lethal possibility would also be teased out via the breeding experiments I mentioned. At this time, it appears unknown and people are just jumping to conclusions and repeating things they have read regarding the Enigma. It's a valid possibility, though. More work would provide the necessary evidence, of course.

As for the ball python traits, I don't know their characteristics because I do not care to read about or work with them. I am not sure what you're asking. You say there hasn't been a homozygous Spider ball, yet you said there have been homo x homo crossings. Did you mean het x het? In any event, it may be a lethal trait when expressed in homozygous form, much as it can occur in other traits in other animals (cats, for example). The breeding experiments, properly performed, tease it out.

Just as a hypothetical example, suppose gene A codes for tyrosinase isozyme A and gene B codes for tyosinase isozyme B. Tyrosinase A and Tyrosinase B both convert substrates such as tyrosine and dopa into melanin and/or dopamine. Imagine A is more prevalent in dermal tissue and B is more prevalent in neural tissue. They're not interchangeable in the context of the whole organism. A mutation affecting one may be fine and a mutation affecting the other may cause retardation and neuropathy or death. Let's look at human IGF-1 as an example for an even more layered matter. IGF-1 has a single gene, but there are other genes that are tissue-specific that cause what are known as splice variants. The one that codes one way in the liver makes typical IGF-1, which floats around in your blood. The same gene in your skeletal muscle, under the influence of other genes and their proteins, makes a slightly modified version known as MGF. It's a small change in the number of amino acid residues in the overall structure of the protein or just the sequence of arrangement. This causes them to have different effects in the body. Imagine if something similar occurs with a number of visibly expressed traits we see in leopard gecko and ball python morphs. That's how a number of these mutant forms work. Either a completely dysfunctional gene and its protein or a gene and protein with modified function in the context of other genes and the entire organism (global context). When we see the Enigma (or the Spider ball), what we can observe is the tiniest and often least important aspect of the overall effect the given gene or genes are having, as very few things in physiology occur in a biochemical vacuum. Just like four bases make for an incredibly diverse number of proteins, those proteins interact in even more diverse ways than the genetic code alone would indicate. A large portion of many proteins consists of what is called glycosylation, which for our purposes can be envisioned as sugar molecules that are attached in various spots (glycosylation sites) to the protein. These may influence nuances in structure, function, and things like immunogenicity (this is the mounting of an immune response to a perceived threat). This adds another layer of complexity to protein interaction, too.

In the turtle world, T+ and T- animals are compatible. It would depend on which tyrosinase and where, as well as the proteomic cascade. In the tortoise world, albinism overshadows leucism, too. A lot depends upon positioning as well as the resultant proteomics of the genes involved.

Still, despite all of the interactions you can start to imagine from what I typed above, breeding experiments, rigorously conducted and thoroughly recorded, with enough numbers, would be able to tell much of the macroscopic tale. I hope this helps some. It doesn't give an answer, but it sheds some light on what can be involved and why. The foundation for understanding will always be the work (without emotional investment- we should always try to prove ourselves incorrect instead of trying to prove ourselves correct).

 

[Paco]

Boah... Should have made it a bit clearer.

All Homo x Homo Albino T+ and T- is what I should have said. In the ball world and I think there have only been 1 or 2 Compatible Albino Strains and they were both a T+ I believe. So no T+ x T- have worked. I also believe the Lavender Albino does not work with the other Strains as well.

Spider has been all Visual het x Visual het. No homo Spider yet?

Thanks again for the great info.:main_thumbsup: