Undeveloped Eye

[M_surinamensis]

I have had to cull an animal before. Only after months and months of trying to get it to thrive. I understand the feeling it brings.

Then having the audacity to attack David while he was weighing this important decision and to imply that he didn't respect life is simply crossing a line.

If a human child

A gecko is not a human child. Completely different topic of discussion and one that contributes absolutely nothing to the subject at hand.

Please do not attempt to derail this subject by filling it with such unrelated emotional booby traps. It serves to nothing but cloud the issue and obscure useful information.

Anyway, I understand your opinion, and I can respect your beliefs. I hope you will return this sentiment.

I really can't do that without abandoning my ethical responsibilities. The two positions are mutually exclusive to one another- it is not something where the two ideas can effectively stand side by side without intersecting in a conflicting manner.

For the health and well being of the entire captive population of the species, culling is a necessary responsibility that we take on when we choose to keep the animals. This is an absolute, there can be no exceptions made, no deviations allowed to go unchallenged.

If you have any other patronizing rants, please direct them to my inbox so the other members do not have to suffer through them.

And here I edited my post to remove the combative portions that called you out personally as being an unethical propagator of bad information, knee jerk emotional responses and the perpetuation of deformed leopard geckos through your amoral and selfish decisions to avoid culling.

If you want to start throwing conversational jabs though, I'm all for it. Feel free to escalate that portion of the conversation. I've been known to enjoy a little back and forth banter.

I must deny your request though, since this is a subject that other people may find themselves facing, I think it is absolutely necessary to keep any points or counterpoints public, where they can be seen by those who might be looking to educate themselves and where a nice public consensus and the qualifications of all the participants espousing a particular viewpoint can be easily distinguished.

 

[roger]

I had my last egg of the season hatch today. Its right eye seems as if its not fully developed. Aside from that, it seems to be doing good. I guess it will turn into a pet for my wife once she sees it..lol.. If i had to guess what caused it. I would say a temp flux. About 3-4 weeks ago, we had a big storm that knocked the power out for several hours and my incubator temp dropped from 82 to around 76-77. The odd thing is that its clutch mate hatched out just fine.. Here are a few pics..

Normal left eye

Undeveloped right eye

Full body pic

Clutch mate

Definately cull !!

 

[roger]

Definately cull

 

[BrilliantEraser]

People who do the responsible thing and cull animals like the one mentioned in this thread are performing an unpleasant but necessary act that is the ultimate expression of the depth of the respect they do have for animals and living organisms. A respect that far exceeds the simplistic two-dimensional view you seem to be espousing. Respect for the animal means making a decision based on the quality of life and on the potential impact that animal might have on the rest of the captive population. It is respect for the individual animal and it it respect for every other member of the entire species and it is a measure of respect that you are not showing.

There is nothing respectful or responsible about keeping an animal alive when it represents a potential genetic danger or when it is living with deformities that retard and destroy its ability to engage in its natural behaviors. In fact, it is selfish to keep such animals alive.

Anyone who wants to breed animals must understand this. Thank you.

I can honestly say that my knee-jerk reaction is usually to try and save the animal. Until I can levelly view my animals (and animals I plan on bringing into the world) and make decisions like this, I will not breed.

 

[acpart]

I've been pretty silent on the cull or don't cull issue and thinking a lot about it. In general I do agree about the importance of preserving the strength of the species. As with most things in life, I feel that there are situations where, for me, the choice is clear and other situations where it's not so clear based on my own personal beliefs and abilities.
It's clear to me that a gecko with a deformity that will cause it pain and a marginal lifestyle should be culled and I have had my brother, who is a vet, do this when necessary.
It's clear to me that a gecko pairing that is consistently producing babies with genetic problems should be retired from breeding, which I did with my male super snow because of several failure to thrive offspring
I understand also discarding eggs from a pairing where there was an unfortunate genetic combination like Bell/Tremper mix

These culling situations are less clear to me as far as how I would proceed personally (as opposed to what I think other people should do):
--hatchlings that are the result of an undesirable genetic pairing (e.g. Bell/Tremper mixes; we had a thread about this at one point)
--hatchlings with a deformity, most likely not genetic (e.g. eyelid notching, clubbed tail, where incubation/supplementation issues are most likely the case) that can carry out their "normal functions" with little or no assistance

Yes, I know that even if someone promises not to breed, there's no guarantee, and that these less than perfect specimens can have an impact on the CB gene pool. However I balance that against the following: the deformities I'm alluding to are likely not genetic, the geckos don't look desireable as breeders (yes, I know breeding can happen "accidentally", but the chances are relatively low), I have a hard time culling an animal that can have a reasonable life. I don't feel that the genetic weakness or undesirability is such that there will be a major affect on the entire captive bred population. I have been breeding successfully for 6 years and feel I have made a positive contribution genetically despite the few (less than 10%) of the "special needs" geckos I've produced and given to responsible people.

I'm not posting this in order to convince people that I'm right or that things should be done my way. My point is that someone can make a slightly different decision than either culling everything that isn't perfect or giving up on breeding and that it can be a valid decision. I'm satisfied to agree to disagree and think that the situation allows for more flexibility than has been talked about recently. That's about all I have to say and I will probably not continue the debate. I can live with the disagreement, but will not enjoy being disagreed with to the tune that I am being "unethical" or other words describing what I am as opposed to what I choose to do.

Aliza

 

[Tony C]

the geckos don't look desireable as breeders (yes, I know breeding can happen "accidentally", but the chances are relatively low)

I think you underestimate the number of people who think they can make a quick buck with free/cheap breeder animals...

 

[BrilliantEraser]

I think you underestimate the number of people who think they can make a quick buck with free/cheap breeder animals...

I see it all the time with dogs, cats, and horses. The results are always heartbreaking. Anyone here gonna mention the glaring issue of pet overpopulation?

 

[AsgerB]

if it were my hatchling i would put it to sleep. no doubt.