Very simple questions about red stripes

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TripleMoonsExotic

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KellyTCS said:
Ahhh, you clear my brain! Thanks, and nice gecko! What morph is that?

Well she was sold as a "Reduced Pattern het APTOR" so I honestly have no idea what she technically is. :main_laugh: I thought she was cute. :main_thumbsup:

trizzypballr said:
so the only possible way to get a raptor is to breed 2 raptors together? or at least have 1 parent be a raptor and the other a tang tremper albino?

RAPTOR x RAPTOR will produce RAPTORS, but I'm not certain if it will produce just RAPTORS (like if it were recessive). What throws me off is the Eclipse trait which from what I've heard is difficult to get to reproduce fully (both eyes solid). I have a pair of "het" RAPTORS from Luxurious Leopards (a Tangerine Tremper & a Hybino) that I plan to breed this winter and document fully what they produce.
 

ThunderGekko

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I will be breeding my Raptor hets with my Raptor male somewhere the next few month's, so I will see what comes out.......

My Raptor hets are very tangerine for sure, they are looking very orange....
So i'm looking forward to the nice baby's that will hatch from them....


About the patternless gene used:
I don't know if you have Trempers book? In the book he shows a picture of what he calls a patternless animal. The animal looks like a super hypo.... It has pattern on his head and tail..... In his book i believe he claims it to be recessive...(Don't know that for sure...)

Looking at the picture in the book, I believe he has used not a patterless gene, but hypo genes....
Because if he used patternless genes, how could a (r)aptor then show pattern on his head and tail???
I think that he used hypo genes, that maybe are recessive genes, like Ray Hines hypo line....

The reason I believe that is because I have 2 animals from Raptor x Super hypo breeding..... (Super Hypo is Ray Hine hypo line i think)

All animals hatched from that breeding turning out to be super hypos, or at least almost super. And looking as good or better as their mother. Some loose also the pattern on the head....

So if the Raptor didn't had any Hypo genes in him, the offspring should have had far more pattern i think..... (As is the case with super hypo breeding to normal....)

These are just things ive noticed, so they might be wrong......
What do you think of this? Because some of you have more Raptor experience then I have at this moment.......
 

Sandra

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ThunderGekko said:
About the patternless gene used:
I don't know if you have Trempers book? In the book he shows a picture of what he calls a patternless animal. The animal looks like a super hypo.... It has pattern on his head and tail..... In his book i believe he claims it to be recessive...(Don't know that for sure...)

Looking at the picture in the book, I believe he has used not a patterless gene, but hypo genes....
I have that book, and I don't think that it is a hypo. Looks more like a patternless stripe to me for the looks of its tail. An hypo would have a normal tail pattern. But yeah, looking just at the body looks like a hypo. I think it's just a stripe line bred to have few spots. So, nothing genetic in it (supposing that stripes are not genetic).

ThunderGekko said:
I think that he used hypo genes, that maybe are recessive genes, like Ray Hines hypo line....

The reason I believe that is because I have 2 animals from Raptor x Super hypo breeding..... (Super Hypo is Ray Hine hypo line i think)

All animals hatched from that breeding turning out to be super hypos, or at least almost super. And looking as good or better as their mother. Some loose also the pattern on the head....

So if the Raptor didn't had any Hypo genes in him, the offspring should have had far more pattern i think..... (As is the case with super hypo breeding to normal....)

Provided that aptors hypomelanism is line bred, and that I suppose that Hine's ghosts have been also selected to have few spots (apart from the genetic hypomelanism), it wouldn't be strange that all the offspring had inhereted the line bred hypomelanism. Also, the ghost seems to be a codominant trait, not recessive, and that should give you hypo offspring in the first generation although the trait won't be so obvious as in a pure ghost.

TripleMoonsExotic said:
RAPTOR x RAPTOR will produce RAPTORS, but I'm not certain if it will produce just RAPTORS (like if it were recessive). What throws me off is the Eclipse trait which from what I've heard is difficult to get to reproduce fully (both eyes solid).
I think it IS a recessive trait, because snake eyes and eclipse seem to be the same trait. Although you may not get pure red eyes in a raptor x raptor cross, you will have snake eyes. I think that the only difference between snake and eclipse is that in eclipse the spot is big enough to cover the whole eye or is well located in the visible part of the eye. But they are genetically the same. It just takes selective breeding and luck to place the eye spot where it is suposed to be.

Well, that's what I think, I've never worked with raptors :p I haven't even seen one in person, but that seems to be the most logical explanation.
 
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TripleMoonsExotic

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Sandra said:
I think it IS a recessive trait, because snake eyes and eclipse seem to be the same trait. Although you may not get pure red eyes in a raptor x raptor cross, you will have snake eyes. I think that the only difference between snake and eclipse is that in eclipse the spot is big enough to cover the whole eye or is well located in the visible part of the eye. But they are genetically the same. It just takes selective breeding and luck to place the eye spot where it is suposed to be.

I definitely agree that snakes eyes is the same thing as Eclipse. What confuses me about it is if it were recessive, it should be easier to reproduce the solid Eclipse eyes. I've heard it isn't easy to get a gecko with both eyes being solid. It is a possible that selective breeding is involved when comparing snake eyes to solid. Though if a RAPTOR x RAPTOR produces no variation in the eyes in even one of the offspring (no snake eyes, not solid), then it is definitely not recessive.
 

o0 Ryan 0o

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It's been said, but it's many peoples belief that the pattern is created from a stripe x reverse stripe. The stripes essentially cancel each other out creating the patternless. If you take notice, many APTORs/RAPTORs have a stripe influence to them. I see lots of them with striped tails, and lots with a reverse stripe pattern which typically fills in with time.

About the eyes...if the snake-eyed gene is floating around in many of the RAPTOR projects, why couldn't it pop up in a RAPTORxRAPTOR breeding. The red eyes carry over and you have red snake eyes. Also because of the snake-eyed gene you don't always get the solid red eyes. If you hatch a RAPTOR with one red eye and one with 1/4 red I don't think it rules out recessive. The eyes usually fill out as they grow, or else turn into a snake-eye. They're still red from what I've seen.

As for the hets, I believe you can call them hets. The only oddball in the mix is the snake-eye gene. I have two RAPTORS here that were from het x het breeding. They both have two snake eyes, but they're red. Also, another thing to consider is that fact that you can have both albino and non albino hets. So you can have an albino het for the RAPTOR traits, or a non albino het albino and the RAPTOR traits.

I know there are some variations in pattern and eyes, but I really don't feel theres anything fishy about them. It's hard to have the perfect exact gecko you want pop out, there's always going to be some variations.
 

Jeanne

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Ryan,

Do you think the "Red" color and the "Snake Eyed" eye pattern (Or whatever you would cal it) could be 2 seperate traits?
 

o0 Ryan 0o

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Well if both of the eye traits are "recessive" I don't see why you could have an animal expressing both. I think the reason you see many variations in the eyes is because of the two traits floating around. It's hard to get something with solid red eyes when you have another trait that only shows half red. This also makes it harder to tell when they're young. Geckos eyes do change as they grow, so you just need a little time to figure out if it's going to fill in red or turn snake-eye. Also, maybe with both traits floating some of them mesh...and then you have an eye that doesn't know what it wants to be haha. From what I've seen though, all of the eyes are red.
 

Jeanne

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I didn't mean one trait is solid red and one half red. I meant one trait is the color red, and one trait is the snake eye. So, when the 2 come together you get Red Snake Eyed. Just like when you mix any other Recessive trait, like Albino mixed with Patternless, you get PA's.
 

o0 Ryan 0o

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Well I think they are two traits since they both can be found in non RAPTORs. That could very well be it to Jeanne, maybe this is how it's mixed with RAPTORs. I didn't mean for it to sound like there was a trait for a red eye and one for a half red eye.

I know Ron is working with non RAPTOR red-eyed geckos right now. We have a non RAPTOR as well with red eyes. The red-eye trait definitely has enough umph to show up elsewhere it seems. It's pretty darn cool.

junglere_1.jpg

junglere_2.jpg
 
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Jeanne

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Very Cool Gecko Ryan. I honestly believe the RAPTOR is made up of many different line bred and recessive traits. I don't have the time or the rack space to prove it out though...LOL
 

o0 Ryan 0o

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Yeah, I'm just going by what I've seen. I'm not a genetics whiz, nor have I bred them yet. It will be fun to find out exactly how they work down the road.
 

GroovyGeckos.com

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This is a non-albino "APTOR", it came from Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe Albino.

They are called "Patternless Red Stripes", and when bred to an APTOR or RAPTOR, "Patternless" and "RAPTOR" are created.:main_yes:
 

GroovyGeckos.com

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This is an APTOR X PRS. You most certainly can reproduce the "Patternless", I myself think the "Eclipse" (solid OR snake eye trait) is dependant on the pattern. If your gecko diplays or carries the "Patternless" gene it is likely to be a "het" for RAPTOR.

"Patternless Red Stripes" have the ability to produce Eclipse, when bred to RAPTORs, and not to the "het" RAPTORs it seems. Much like linebred Snows can make Super Snows with the Super Snows, but not by themselves.
 
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TripleMoonsExotic

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GroovyGeckos.com said:
This is a non-albino "APTOR", it came from Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe Albino.

What defines a non-albino "APTOR"? Could you define the gecko I posted in #16 that way?
 

Sandra

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GroovyGeckos.com said:
I myself think the "Eclipse" (solid OR snake eye trait) is dependant on the pattern.
That's what I thought at first, but there's people that has been able to separate the solid eye trait from the patternless stripe trait. There are some people with jungle albino eclipses (Tremper announced he archieved it some time ago, but there was people that had already archieved it before Tremper).

Ryan, I think that I don't understand very well what you are trying to explain. Are you saying that the red color comes from a different gene? If that was the case, non albino eclipses would also be able to show red eyes, not only albinos.
 

KelliH

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"Patternless Red Stripes" have the ability to produce Eclipse, when bred to RAPTORs, and not to the "het" RAPTORs it seems.

Dan, I produced Raptors by breeding Patternless Red Stripes Het Albino to each other.
 

GroovyGeckos.com

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Stephanie, the lack of pattern. The lack of "normal" pattern, meaning not quite a stripe, jungle, or reverse stripe. I have seen a bunch like that, where they have a few dots or dashes, partial stripes, off centered type of partial reverse stripes, some that look like both striped and reverse striped at the same time, the ones with "dotted and dashed" (a way Ron Tremper explained it to me once), andincomplete patterns.

This is my female Snake Eye RAPTOR. You can see she has stripes pretty much, and then only the small spots in the center like a reverse stripe. I still consider her a "Patternless".

The male I posted in post #33 did not hatch that way he looked more like a Bold Jungle. LOL
 
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GroovyGeckos.com

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Sandra, Im pretty sure those banded "Eclipse" came from the R/Aptor project though. I hatched a Red Eyed Jungle Albino in early 2005 from the original "APTOR" release geckos, but the parents were an Aptor, and a Reverse Stripe "het Aptor". She carried the genes over to make all patterns. I think those few banded will also

Kelli, thats right, I think Alberto did too. More specifically what I meant it was my actual "APTOR" proven "het", bred to "poss hets", and my PRS(Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe) geckos. I had a bit of bad luck I guess with mine.:p
 
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