Who raises temps after 3-4 weeks?

[fl_orchidslave]

Tremper did not originate this method of incubation, he just took credit for it. In reality, the "Tremper Incubation Method" of raising temperatures after 14-21 days in order to brighten the color of brown albino females was accidentally discovered when Drs. David Crews and Brian Viets et al were performing temperature sex determination studies in David Crews labs back in the 80's.

Personally, I feel with the superior color genetics we have today, there is really no need to manipulate incubation temperatures to achieve superior color. If this was the case, by virtue of their higher incubation temperatures, male leopard geckos would simply be 'brighter' than females in general... but this is not the case at all.

Maybe just another marketing ploy? :main_robin:

 

[xanderville]

Tremper did not originate this method of incubation, he just took credit for it. In reality, the "Tremper Incubation Method" of raising temperatures after 14-21 days in order to brighten the color of brown albino females was accidentally discovered when Drs. David Crews and Brian Viets et al were performing temperature sex determination studies in David Crews labs back in the 80's.

Personally, I feel with the superior color genetics we have today, there is really no need to manipulate incubation temperatures to achieve superior color. If this was the case, by virtue of their higher incubation temperatures, male leopard geckos would simply be 'brighter' than females in general... but this is not the case at all.

That is a very interesting point. Good observation Marcia

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I know a very reputable, large-scale breeder that does practice the dual incubation method with amazing success. He told me it's because he wants female geckos hatching sooner than 7-8 weeks. I don't have an opinion one way or the other if this is ethical, but certainly think it is not an issue as long as it is fully disclosed to potential buyers.

I tried a few Tremper clutches using this method several years ago, and most of the eggs failed or produced deformed babies. The ones that made it were definitely brighter in color, but again this was back when Trempers were brown when incubated at low temps. Also, since Bold Stripe females almost always turn out much nicer than males I tried the reverse method, where I incubated at 88-89 degrees for 21 days to set the gender as male and then the rest of the incubation time at 82-83 degrees. There was very little difference, but again I do not have a large number of BS eggs I am willing to sacrifice if the experiment goes awry.

 

[MiamiLeos]

I voted for yes gradually because I do sometimes, not always though. I have done it with tangs and some albinos and have gotten brighter females than when they were incubated at 80-82. However, I worry about eyelid deformities and such because of temperature changes, so this season I havent done any temp raising at all. Idk, I'm not really in a pro or con position.

 

[LZRDGRL]

Since the start of this year, I'm doing it, and I'm announcing it in my mission statement on my website. I haven't hatched a single deformed gecko this year, but several of my Bells are neon-orange, and some of my Trempers are stark white with orange/yellow contrast as I've never seen before. I also had four boys hatch this year, although I'm breeding for all females (two of those are my star boys, Lindy and Solstice, so I'm actually glad to have them!).

Since I hatched some boys, I'm incubating for a whole month, not 3 weeks, at 82F now, and then at 87-88F for the remainder of the time. I have no clue if it's the higher temps that make my babies prettier this year than in the three past years, or if it's the fact that I invested in really bright breeder animals from Kelli Hammack, JMG, Paul Allen, Ryan from retribution reptiles, Eric from OG, and Bryan Jett... ??? I'm tending towards the latter. :main_thumbsup:

I mainly do it because I got a mini fridge incubator for Christmas last year, and my Hovabator was full, so I shifted some eggs over into the mini fridge after 3 weeks / 4 weeks. Since I'm happy with the results, I don't see any reason not to do it. I don't think it's unethical or "cheating," especially since it's stated in my Mission Statement. If one can get prettier geckos through temp raising, why not? It's not like giving them color to eat so they look prettier, which would be fake and cheating, because the babies won't look like this. I haven't bred any of my neon-orange Bells yet, but I'm curious to see next year if their offspring, when I breed the daughters back to the father, will inherit this color. But since I'll probably put them in the hot incubator again after 4 weeks, I won't know whether it's line breeding or temps that create this great color.... Unless I test it...

I have read a few articles by David Crews, and have linked some to my website on the Education tab, if someone is interested (most are about temp-sexing, in fact).

I see it this way: If one can produce a nicer-looking gecko through temp raising, why not do it. Some people have a nose job done and think they look nicer after it, too. Of course, their children won't inherit nicer noses, since it's not genetic. We don't know yet if those geckos incubated at higher temps will have ordinary babies or excelling, colorful ones. But either way, there are lots of people who just want a gecko for its looks, not for breeding, so we should offer them the best we can produce. I admit, it's a little bit artificial, but then in nature, temps vary too, and if after a heat wave prettier geckos hatch because they were incubated at hotter temps, so be it!

Of course, if I ever hatch deformed geckos and can trace that back to the higher temps, I will stop it. But I have to say that I hatched more babies with eyelid creases and tail kinks in 2009 when I didn't have power for many days due to storms, and they got too cool.

My motto is: whatever you do, always disclose it! If you buy food, you also want to know whether it has been genetically altered. (At least in Germany; I hope in other countries, too.) JUST in case you get sick from that food...

Chrissy

 

[Wild West Reptile]

That's a good read Chrissy. Thanks for the input. I think too many breeders who do it are worried what others will say about it and call it "artificial" or "not a true color" or what have you. I'm glad you came forward and reported positive results. I recently found out another VERY POPULAR breeder who is on this forum regularly does it as well, and they have had ZERO defects doing it (80 for 3 -4 weeks then raise to 85-86) as well for years. I still believe that the ones who reported deformities were working with genetically inferior animals. Not all of them, but some. Eyelid creases can be traced back to genetics as well as periods of incubator cooling due to power loss, but I have yet to see anyone prove it's because of warmer temps.

Please keep us updated on your results next year as well. I would really like to hear about it, especially if you experiment by doing some and not doing it with some.

One question I have is.....How much sooner did they hatch doing it this way?

 

[lillith]

I actually do something a little different.

I will start out a season at female temperatures for the first few clutches, then slowly titrate up towards male temperatures mid-season. Once I have a riot of hatchlings, I begin titrating back down to about 85-86 to incubate the last few clutches. I try to move temperatures no more than 0.5-1.0 degree Fahrenheit per adjustment, and I usually try to give 24-48 hours between adjustments.

This helps provide a gender balance with the one incubator I have, and may also help color things up a little. I have been breeding for four seasons now, at a snail's pace of growth; so I don't think I have enough "field" observations in for my particular group of geckos regarding color outcomes per genetics available to say one way or the other. I have seen the experiments mentioned and other examples of the principle in action, though. It's interesting, and something I look forward to discovering more about with my geckos. =)

 

[LZRDGRL]

One question I have is.....How much sooner did they hatch doing it this way?[/QUOTE]

I don't have a chart for this, but I write the lay date on all my eggs, and if an egg was laid on June 28th and was transferred to the hot temperature after three-four weeks, it hatches on August 16 and 17. (This was my last example; just born this week). So I'd say, 2 weeks sooner than expected? Just count the days in between... My "cold incubated" females take 65 days to hatch at 82F constantly. I'm bad at math

Chrissy