Why???

[stager]

I will never own one, or agree with breeding them. But I don't hate on others who do. To each his own. And they are beautiful

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I am neither pro breeding or anti breeding, I'm trying to give you some insite on why it will never change.

It will never change because people are more concerned with making pretty geckos and money than avoiding the possibility of suffering.

~Maggot

 

[katie_]

Youre wrong, but theres ovbiously no reasoning with you.

 

[athdaraxen]

Sure it can.
Some bulldogs stop breathing in the heat. Its a risk to any brachycephalic dog. Ive witnessed many surgerys where the dogs nostrils need to be made wider. Its disgusting.
Some enigmas develop the syndrom. Both can be environmental. Both can live long normal lives. People still breed bulldogs.
I myself have yet to see an enigma with symptoms, in person. Have you?
I have one and shes perfectly normal. Will I breed her? I dont know yet. But its still MY decision.
I am neither pro breeding or anti breeding, I'm trying to give you some insite on why it will never change.

Even if it's disgusting at least it's a form of treatment. Engima syndrome is untreatable to my knowledge. If it is in fact treatable then tell me. I honestly don't know much about it as I don't have an Enigma gecko but I joined this discussion so that I can learn more about it.

Just because neither you nor I have seen it on person doesn't make the issue any less real but I understand, just because we've seen them on video or read descriptions of people who have them doesn't mean we fully understand it. Or at least I think that's what you meant by that.

Personally I'll probably never breed geckos but if I did, I would never breed with enigmas for the fact it's un-treatable (to my knowledge) . I mean even if a gecko is born with something like MBD it can be treated and with time and care and be fixed. Enigma geckos that have the syndrome, especially those who have it bad can't get treated for it. All you can do is make them comfortable and make sure they eat and drink and such. But if people wish to continue breeding them than they will do so no matter the protest. It's as you said, it's the owners descion. I can't change that, but maybe through discussions like this people can become more educated on the matter and know more about what they are doing before getting into breeding Enigmas. As I said above its kinda why I joined this discussion, I want to learn more.

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[Embrace Calamity]

Even if it's disgusting at least it's a form of treatment. Engima syndrome is untreatable to my knowledge. If it is in fact treatable then tell me. I honestly don't know much about it as I don't have an Enigma gecko but I joined this discussion so that I can learn more about it.

Just because neither you nor I have seen it on person doesn't make the issue any less real but I understand, just because we've seen them on video or read descriptions of people who have them doesn't mean we fully understand it. Or at least I think that's what you meant by that.

Personally I'll probably never breed geckos but if I did, I would never breed with enigmas for the fact it's un-treatable (to my knowledge) . I mean even if a gecko is born with something like MBD it can be treated and with time and care and be fixed. Enigma geckos that have the syndrome, especially those who have it bad can't get treated for it. All you can do is make them comfortable and make sure they eat and drink and such. But if people wish to continue breeding them than they will do so no matter the protest. It's as you said, it's the owners descion. I can't change that, but maybe through discussions like this people can become more educated on the matter and know more about what they are doing before getting into breeding Enigmas. As I said above its kinda why I joined this discussion, I want to learn more.

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The only "treatment" is to avoid stress as much as possible, as that can exacerbate it.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

The only "treatment" is to avoid stress as much as possible, as that can exacerbate it.

~Maggot

I thought as much, I'm gonna go find some articles on ES to learn a bit more about it.

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[Embrace Calamity]

I thought as much, I'm gonna go find some articles on ES to learn a bit more about it.

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Unfortunately there's not a whole lot out there about it. I think a lot of people don't really want to discuss it in detail. Most info you'll have to get from people with direct experience with it.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot out there about it. I think a lot of people don't really want to discuss it in detail. Most info you'll have to get from people with direct experience with it.

~Maggot

I see that now, my Google search didn't really come up with a lot of info.

This whole thing kinda reminds me of certain human diseases that are not well know or documented and because of that not much on treatment is known. How will will learn to fix it if no one will speak? Awareness is always a great way to get folks more educated and helps to find ways to fix problems.

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[Embrace Calamity]

I see that now, my Google search didn't really come up with a lot of info.

This whole thing kinda reminds me of certain human diseases that are not well know or documented and because of that not much on treatment is known. How will will learn to fix it if no one will speak? Awareness is always a great way to get folks more educated and helps to find ways to fix problems.

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Yeah, but people who breed these geckos don't want to go around broadcasting the specifics of the disease, but they're the ones with the most experience with it. No one's gonna be like, "Here, I wrote up a detailed explanation of this terrible disease that causes great suffering. Btw, I breed these." Usually the info you'll find (seems to) come from people who bought geckos with ES. There are a few videos of it on YouTube too.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

Yeah, but people who breed these geckos don't want to go around broadcasting the specifics of the disease, but they're the ones with the most experience with it. No one's gonna be like, "Here, I wrote up a detailed explanation of this terrible disease that causes great suffering. Btw, I breed these." Usually the info you'll find (seems to) come from people who bought geckos with ES. There are a few videos of it on YouTube too.

~Maggot

I suppose if one wanted to stay in business they wouldn't. But don't most breeders use the Engima because they can produce other really pretty morphs? Does that help...I dunno dilute(?) the Engima syndrome or ES one of those, if it's got it Engima in it can still be just as bad a pure enigma? (are there pure enigmas?) I'm sorry for the questions, I want to get lots of info so that if people look this up they can learn too!

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[Embrace Calamity]

I suppose if one wanted to stay in business they wouldn't. But don't most breeders use the Engima because they can produce other really pretty morphs? Does that help...I dunno dilute(?) the Engima syndrome or ES one of those, if it's got it Engima in it can still be just as bad a pure enigma? (are there pure enigmas?) I'm sorry for the questions, I want to get lots of info so that if people look this up they can learn too!

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Some breed pure enigmas, and some crossbreed them. I can't speak to what it does to the syndrome itself.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

Some breed pure enigmas, and some crossbreed them. I can't speak to what it does to the syndrome itself.

~Maggot

That's it I'm going forum searching. Lol
I'm sure there have been other posts about it somewhere! I'll report back with my findings.

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[Embrace Calamity]

That's it I'm going forum searching. Lol
I'm sure there have been other posts about it somewhere! I'll report back with my findings.

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There are some breeders on here. You could probably send some PMs.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

There are some breeders on here. You could probably send some PMs.

~Maggot

Yeah searching here didn't come up much either. I'm going to do some research elsewhere. I'll try some breeders too! Maybe I'll be able to shed some light on all this.

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[Embrace Calamity]

Yeah searching here didn't come up much either. I'm going to do some research elsewhere. I'll try some breeders too! Maybe I'll be able to shed some light on all this.

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Well feel free to let me know what you find out. I'd be interested to hear.

~Maggot

 

[pmkent1]

Yeah, but people who breed these geckos don't want to go around broadcasting the specifics of the disease, but they're the ones with the most experience with it. No one's gonna be like, "Here, I wrote up a detailed explanation of this terrible disease that causes great suffering. Btw, I breed these." Usually the info you'll find (seems to) come from people who bought geckos with ES. There are a few videos of it on YouTube too.

~Maggot

This year was my first year breeding and I had eggs in the incubator before I knew anything about it. I had 5 enigma babies. 3 of which have grown up just fine with no noticable signs at all. The other two unfortunately were so bad that they could barely walk much less feed, etc (neither of which survived more than a few months). It was terrible. For thay reason I decided a while ago to no continue that project.

Yes 3 of them will most like go on to live normal gecko-y lives but knowing that if I continued I would certainly produce more like the other 2 was enough for me to not. And I dont have intentions of trying to outcross them to isolate it.

I dont have the years of experience to call myself knowledgeable on the subject but from the limited experience I do have, I dont believe its worth the effort/pain. But like I mentioned above, I cant blame people for trying.

 

[athdaraxen]

Well feel free to let me know what you find out. I'd be interested to hear.

~Maggot

I'll post here once I find out more information! Thanks for the inspiration lol.

This year was my first year breeding and I had eggs in the incubator before I knew anything about it. I had 5 enigma babies. 3 of which have grown up just fine with no noticable signs at all. The other two unfortunately were so bad that they could barely walk much less feed, etc (neither of which survived more than a few months). It was terrible. For thay reason I decided a while ago to no continue that project.

Yes 3 of them will most like go on to live normal gecko-y lives but knowing that if I continued I would certainly produce more like the other 2 was enough for me to not. And I dont have intentions of trying to outcross them to isolate it.

I dont have the years of experience to call myself knowledgeable on the subject but from the limited experience I do have, I dont believe its worth the effort/pain. But like I mentioned above, I can blame people for trying.

It's nice to hear from someone who has experienced it first hand. Some of the YouTube videos I watched were pretty bad, I imagine it's only worse to see on person.

I'm sorry about your two little ones.

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[Embrace Calamity]

This year was my first year breeding and I had eggs in the incubator before I knew anything about it. I had 5 enigma babies. 3 of which have grown up just fine with no noticable signs at all. The other two unfortunately were so bad that they could barely walk much less feed, etc (neither of which survived more than a few months). It was terrible. For thay reason I decided a while ago to no continue that project.

Yes 3 of them will most like go on to live normal gecko-y lives but knowing that if I continued I would certainly produce more like the other 2 was enough for me to not. And I dont have intentions of trying to outcross them to isolate it.

I dont have the years of experience to call myself knowledgeable on the subject but from the limited experience I do have, I dont believe its worth the effort/pain. But like I mentioned above, I can blame people for trying.

I hate to break this to you, but symptoms can arise at any time. They might appear okay now, but that doesn't mean they will continue to be. There was a post from a breeder I found on here that stated all enigmas have it, just to varying degrees, though I can't say if that's true or not. It's good that you've decided not to continue though.

~Maggot

 

[athdaraxen]

I actually just read on another forum of a gecko showing no signs of it, then one day during shedding the gecko went all Syndrome and choked on his own shed.

I forget if I can post links to other forums. *runs off to re-read rules*

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[Embrace Calamity]

I actually just read on another forum of a gecko showing no signs of it, then one day during shedding the gecko went all Syndrome and choked on his own shed.

I forget if I can post links to other forums. *runs off to re-read rules*

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Yeah, in my research, I've found several posts about people with geckos that never showed any symptoms and then all of a sudden started showing them.

~Maggot