Your own line...

[Wezul]

I did not mean to imply they are not wothy of the name- on the contrary, they are WELL DESEVERING the name they have, the fact that other breeders sell "Raining Red Stripes" is proof that they do deserve the name. The point/question I guess I was trying to ask/make was that even though they are GORGEOUS geckos, if a breeder were to 'create' a similiar looking gecko, only Bell/Tremper, I don't think one would 'stand out' from the other simply by looking at it; look at the confusion between Tremper patternless & Rainwater patternless-they are not always easy to tell simply by looking at them. I am Grateful Jeremy developed the name and morph - it's descriptive and clever.:main_thumbsup:

 

[bro paul]

Another key in my opinion, is thinking "outside the box"...and then sticking with that thought/project once you committ. I agree with Frank...the trend seems to be for most people (myself included, at times) to go with the hottest projects available. It makes sense...it opens new doors to new projects and morphs...and it's fun to have! (just to name a few reasons) But, I know that I found myself a bit overwhelmed by all the projects I had gotten myself into. I felt like I had tons of great potential in my collection but no real "specialty"... the "shot gun approach"...trying to do a little of everything. Some folks can handle that approach well I guess, but I've decided to start narrowing my focus to the projects that are really exciting to me...the ones I've worked the hardest on...and it feels great! I've gone from about 60+ projects down to about 30...and I dream of the day I get it down to only a dozen that I'm having great success with and maybe two or three that I can begin to be "known" for...if that makes sense.

Anyway...sorry for chasing a rabbit there. I do have a thought on the current topic. In my mind, there are two different types of lines. A line that someone originated/created...like Jeremy's Raining Redstripes for example. And the other would be a "line" of stock. By that I mean, I may be interested in buying Tangerines directly from TUG stock...or from another breeder who has TUG stock and has carefully and painstakingly bred them for a few seasons. I would then say I was proud to own tangerines from that breeders stock (or line) even though they originated from TUG. This may not seem fair to TUG...but at what point can a breeder start taking some credit for the work they've done with someone elses original creation? I guess that's back to the original question...lol

 

[Wezul]

You guys all have great points but one that I think really comes into play is popularity. If are not popular amongst the community, or the so called 'in crowd' I think you have a harder time calling something your own. Hope that makes sense and if not I hope you see where I am coming from.

I think Thomas hit the nail on the head. A breeder can call a gecko they've produced whatever they want (regardless of which 'line' you use), but if it's not accepted by the 'general community' the name will probably be short-lived.

The only example I can think of right now:
RT coined the name RAPTOR, while popular with the 'general community' at the time, the term RERS is now used for alot of geckos that would have been called Raptos two years ago.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

the term RERS is now used for alot of geckos that would have been called Raptos two years ago.

It's all about marketing. There are breeders that breed geckos for different reasons... some to get to the bank as soon as possible on a 'new' (I use that therm loosely) morph and the dollars it can bring, and those who breed geckos for the love of the hobby. And then, there are some in-between.

 

[Albey]

Jeremy,
This is a very good thread. A lot of good reasons have been stated why someone has the right to give a Morph a name or call it their line. It doesn’t matter whether it is selective bred or a combination. So far no one has mentioned the one reason I personally think is most important. That would be when your peers and other breeders start referring to your animals as so and so’s line when describing what they used to create an animal. Especially if they are showing it off or are using your name (or the morph you named) selling it. That is truly a sign of respect.

As an example I recently described an Enigma that I had for sale as such – “This one is a stunning orange colored beauty. The Mother is an incredible Carrot-tailed H.I.S.S. Line (Kelli Hammack) Bell Hybino and the Father is the best Albey's Line Tangerine Enigma that I produced last year.”

Now granted I have taken liberty describing one of the Parents as an “Albey's Line Tangerine Enigma” (seeing as this is only the second generation I have created them), but where I was really showing respect was in the description of Kelli’s Bell Hybino. I looked all over the Internet looking for exceptional Bell Albinos. Kelli’s Line was by far the best looking ones available. Using my own name in describing what I produce is what most people would call marketing. I have spent many years developing my line of Super Hypo Tangerine’s and I find nothing wrong with promoting them.

Jeremy, you took Red Stripes and bred them to Las Vegas Albinos to eventually create “Raining Red Stripes”. In my eyes the work you put into that project gave you the right to call them any thing you wanted to as soon as you produced the very first one. That is what it is all about brother. Do not second-guess what you have accomplished. It is a great name for a killer looking gecko.

You go bro!:main_thumbsup:

 

[miamimike]

....another possible way to look at things.....Alot of these "dreamers" that see this awesome hobby as a way to possibly make some $$ put an awful, awful lot of $$ in the hands of some "ethical" breeders. Some of us, admittedly, more than others. I wonder how many of these high dollar, high end morphs the "ethical" breeders would sell each year if it weren't for the "dreamers"??... very respectfully, JMHO

 

[boutiquegecko]

Wes-so far the redstripe/bell cross is being referred to as racing red stripes. Now I don't know when that started or how distinguished they are from the rrs or tremper rs if there are any of those. The few I've seen look like a bold stripe bell that's more red. I thought I saw a post from a few years back that Ian S. had them/was working the cross and since I've only seen a few breeders with that project.

 

[Halley]

I don’t know if this thread is still alive or not, but I’m going to go ahead and answer the question. I think Lekey’s List cover everything you need to have your own line.

• The line has to be the best, or really close near to it to be considered “a line”, that or it has to be very easily distinguishable.
• The Breeder must have a good standing with the community
• Also the line has to have a name, and be “accepted”
• I also think it helps, when other people call your line a line. Such as Albey line breed snow. When he is selling them, he doesn’t say Albey Line, Line Breed Snow. People gave them that name, because of the quality of his lines. I think that this is probably #1 in being able to call something your own line. It is also a huge sign that you have a line, when somebody says I used your line, in this. Such as the father was an Albey Line Snow and the mother was an Urban Gecko Line Snow. Etc.

 

[Paco]

Well put Mike.

....another possible way to look at things.....Alot of these "dreamers" that see this awesome hobby as a way to possibly make some $$ put an awful, awful lot of $$ in the hands of some "ethical" breeders. Some of us, admittedly, more than others. I wonder how many of these high dollar, high end morphs the "ethical" breeders would sell each year if it weren't for the "dreamers"??... very respectfully, JMHO

"Cause you know I am dreamer and my hearts of Gold" The Crew. LOL As for Lines Thats Iffy subject and a hard one to tackle. Not many people in the Dog world Claim to have there OWN Line but many breeders are know for breeding particular allready established lines. I feel the same should apply to Leos. As for Naming a New morph. I am all for that. It gives the Creator a way to market the new morph. All the big brreders are doing is what the little guy wants to do as well. Produce the most colorful and excitng Leos out there. Just because someone gets to the Morph before another person does not make it their Line.IMO It should just give them the right to name it. IMO If you are working with the same genetic pool as the rest of the breeders, does that really make a line different? This is the real questions that need to be brought up about lines. Not selective breeding because thats what we all do as breeders and even hobbiest. Some just reach results sooner than others.

 

[fallen_angel]

I often wonder if it is really important for some breeders to produce the very best examples that they can by putting in the time and developing the quality of their line, or is there pressure to just keep jumping from project to project depending on what is "hot" at the time or where a buck can be made?

I think that the only real breeders that can go after what’s “hot” and successfully make a nice profit while “it’s hot” are the ones that can afford to pay thousands of dollars for one gecko and get in while the iron’s hot. For hobbyists, or breeders of a smaller scale, I think trying to develop and refine certain traits is the best way to go. Perhaps you’ll create a line in your efforts, and perhaps not.

I’ll go with everyone else who said that the community and their opinions are a strong influence as to what’s “a new line.” Once you are producing something that can actually be identifiable (as coming from you) in a group of pics of many geckos, you will be considered to have “a line.” As many others have said, sometimes your customers will claim your line for you.

I think what’s most important is that if you do have something distinguishable from other lines, then you have to breed it for at least a few seasons just to be sure that the desired traits are getting passed on to offspring over several generations. It all takes time.. You may be able to focus on something that you’d like to line breed after the first generation, but it will still take a few more generations to actually figure out how the trait is being passed and it’s proper genetics as well.

So basically, I guess a straight answer would be: time + distinguishable results + community influence/reputation

 

[fallen_angel]

I also just wanted to say that I am very glad this topic was brought up as well, as this is our first year breeding, and we have wondered the very same things.

To be honest Jeremy, it really surprised me that you asked this question. As said, we are relatively new to the reptile market, but my first impression of you was that you are one of the “top guns”! I couldn’t believe that “THE Jeremey Letkey” was asking this question

I think that you have earned the name Jermey’s Raining Redstripes because you seem like you put a lot of time into what you were doing and yielded very amazing results.

What would have happened if you claimed the name the very first year? I really don’t know, but I think that the community influence and reputation is the MOST important factor, above all. Imagine if someone just popped up into the reptile market and tried claiming something as their own their very first year (and let’s just assume they did actually produce something different).. I think that the community wouldn’t really take kindly to this because the question of, “Who is that person?” comes up, and I think it might irritate a lot of people because that person has no reputation whatsoever and they are “jumping the gun” so to speak.

Another important thing is that many breeders that have put a lot of time into what they are doing and have established lines while working very hard to do so -- others should have to do the same before their own line can be distinguished..

I think self-proclaimed lines can only be made by those who have at least worked with something for a few years.. lines that are proclaimed by others would also take time for the public to actually recognize and proclaim the "line".. but now I'm just rambling..

 

[fallen_angel]

and I guess just one other thing about the "hot morphs" - they are all good and fun for the people that can afford it, but I think we can all agree that even once a morph loses it's "brand new vibe" or whatever you want to call it - they are still highly desired. Mack Snows, for example, seem to be the favorite morph of many many people, and it's not as "hot" anymore. Likewise, many people really still like normals too