A question for PSGeckos...

[thestack510]

Do you think it has more to do with obesity because they don't have to hunt for prey and are served by us at all? Maybe our Leos need treadmills, lol.

 

[KelliH]

Do you think it has more to do with obesity because they don't have to hunt for prey and are served by us at all? Maybe our Leos need treadmills, lol.

I think it may have something to do with the high fat content of mealworms and superworms, and it also could have something to do with supplementation. When I fed crickets exclusively many years ago my leos were not as fat as they are today with the huge fat tails, but I also never had issues with fat, "healthy" females being fine one day and dead the next.

 

[KelliH]

One interesting question is whether the fatty liver was the cause of death or the result of not eating because of another cause.

Aliza

The thing is that none of them had stopped eating. They were fine one day, dead the next.

 

[skmcwilliams]

On a side note, every adult leopard gecko that has ever died in my collection that has been necropsied has shown signs of fatty liver disease. My belief is it has something to do with the diet we feed them or the supplementation regiments we follow. I hope someday someone has the time and money (and gumption) to do a long time, several year study on leopard geckos, diet and supplementation. We had donated some of our geckos to Texas Christian University for a study but sadly the project was dissolved due to lack of funding.

This would make more sence for sure, I mean we feed at the best a combination of mealworms/supers/crickets and a lot of breeders only focus on one or two of those. That would be like us eating steak and eggs every single meal, our livers would look like Texas in our bellies. My vet once told me to catch bugs at night that fly to a light I turn on outside, he said that night bugs attracted to light would not be poisonous but would vary up the diet, I was always to afraid that there would be a poisonous bug out there so never did it.

I'm still thinking that the Enigmas issues are ocular but that has got to be a bugger to test for.

Your doing great Kelli, I know you are trying hard to find out what is going on with them. I'm still holding out hope that outcrossing them like crazy will rid them of all their clumsiness

 

[SteveB]

I wonder if it's something else in the diet that we are missing...

 

[Gregg M]

Hi Gregg

The main cause of death would have been by fatty liver, in all enigmas that ourselves,Dave Davis (Welsh reptile breeder) and Ark reptile dontated to science and all come from different sources had fatty liver

This does not tell much of anything as reptiles naturally have a fatty liver... It is also known that most necropsis that come back with fatty liver as the cause of death was not a detailed necropsy... I can bet anything that all of your other leos have "fatty liver" and are living just fine with it... There is obviously more to it and the necropsis should not stop at the liver...

 

[PSGeckos]

This does not tell much of anything as reptiles naturally have a fatty liver... It is also known that most necropsis that come back with fatty liver as the cause of death was not a detailed necropsy... I can bet anything that all of your other leos have "fatty liver" and are living just fine with it... There is obviously more to it and the necropsis should not stop at the liver...

Which is fair enough, but with limited funds and contacts, this was our first step, you seem to be on a witch hunt??? How many geckos ahve you had tested???

We at least found no anatomical abnormalities in the affect geckos we had tested - we only have a samll collection (20 leos) so it wouldn't of been feasable for us to donate as many as Kelli, hence why we are working with Dave Davies as he has a large collection.

We no longer feed mealworms as we were advised a diet too high in fat, we feed soley crickets now.
We looked at possible problems with the parathyroid and the hormones, which can effect absorbtion of calcium and can also cause inborn errors in the metabolic system, but all pie in the sky until tested for.

 

[lillith]

I don't know how pertinent this is to the enigma discussion, but I think it's very interesting, since we're just discovering these hormones/interactions, but I'm wondering if it has implications for MBD as well?

The study:
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/no...eleton-can-make-you-fat/?searchterm=bones fat

The guy who did the study:
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?DepAffil=Genetics&uni=gk2172

Further details of the study (I recommend clicking "Full Text with Large Pictures" on the right):
http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(07)00701-5

I know this is all done in mammals (mice), but maybe there is a similar process going on in reptiles? I don't have research connections or anything, but it might be worth looking into. It could help us all modify leo diets to avoid these sorts of problems?

 

[PSGeckos]

I don't know how pertinent this is to the enigma discussion, but I think it's very interesting, since we're just discovering these hormones/interactions, but I'm wondering if it has implications for MBD as well?

The study:
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/no...eleton-can-make-you-fat/?searchterm=bones fat

The guy who did the study:
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?DepAffil=Genetics&uni=gk2172

Further details of the study (I recommend clicking "Full Text with Large Pictures" on the right):
http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(07)00701-5

I know this is all done in mammals (mice), but maybe there is a similar process going on in reptiles? I don't have research connections or anything, but it might be worth looking into. It could help us all modify leo diets to avoid these sorts of problems?

Very intresting reading!

Furthermore to the parathyriod hormome (PHT) commonly known as hypoparathyroidism, this can cause tetanic contractions, muscle spasm's as well as many other symptoms associated with lack of absorbtion of Calcium, maybe testing hormone levels would be the next step?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The main cause of death would have been by fatty liver

Fatty liver, or hepatic lipidosis, is usually caused by starvation. When geckos go off food for a long time (for whatever reason), all the fat reserves stored in their tails and bodies become mobilized into the bloodstream at a very high rate. These fatty lipids get processed through the liver, and if they are too great they build up in the liver. This can be reversed once the gecko resumes feeding normally, but otherwise the liver will fail and the gecko dies.

 

[Blizzard Lizard]

So if we feed regularly we dont have to worry about our enigma buddies?

 

[Gregg M]

you seem to be on a witch hunt??? How many geckos ahve you had tested???

Witch hunt??? Actually I am a Pagan so I am cool with witches... LOL

Dude, I had no geckos tested but I have had numerous necros done on lizards of many species... I know for a fact that fatty liver is not normally a cause of death...

Secondly, you claimed that neurological issues were ruled out... Was it ruled out as a cause of death or were the enigmas said to not have any neurological issues at all??? Not grillin you, just trying to get to the bottom of your original post... Things just are not adding up... Not through any fault of your own but maybe whoever is doing the necros is not doing a detailed job...

 

[lillith]

I was just wondering if the endocrine-hormone interactions (that we previously didn't know bones were up to) might have systemic implications for the symptoms of enigma neurological issues and/or MBD. I think they might be (distantly) related.

If your metabolism is whacky, it can show up all over the place, is all I was trying to say. Maybe the combination of diet-affected metabolism and genetics in enigmas makes the problem worse or, alternately, could reduce some symptoms' severity.

I know it's going out on a limb.
I was just hoping someone who knows better than me, or has research folks they are in contact with, could look into the question. In vitro is always a possiblity, but in vivo is more accurate.

In anycase, if something leads to a healthier diet for geckos 5 or 10 years from now, wouldn't it help everyone?

Maybe I should drag this question to a separate thread? Is that possible, mods?

 

[M&I Gecko]

Anymore updates on this thread?

 

[M&I Gecko]

Still curious if anyone has heard anything new on this.

 

[M&I Gecko]

Anything?