AFT x Leo eggs fertile?

[thegeckoguy]

Not sure if this is the place to put this but...

I have a friend who bred a leo to an AFT. The eggs were laid and he said they are about a month old. He candled them yesterday and said they seem fertile...Do the eggs of this pairing usually stay fertile until the last few weeks or do you think he may be on to something?

 

[Lena]

I asked about this a little while ago and I recall someone saying that fertile eggs were produced.

Keep me updated, I really want to produce my own AFTxLeo hybrids!

 

[thegeckoguy]

ya that would be spmething else...ill definitely keep updating. Hopefully he can produce some sweet new hybrids

 

[Halley]

I remember reading something saying that this cross was impossible, as the two species although closely related had different number of chromosomes.

Is it possible for you to get pics of the two involved in the paring for us?

 

[Baoh]

What are the respective chromosome numbers for the two species?

 

[Gecko]

Were they freshly aquired? Which one is the male? Could it be possible the eggs are from a previous breeding?

 

[thegeckoguy]

Ill see if i can get pics of the eggs and the parents for ya. As far as i know he is 100% sure that the eggs are from this cross.

 

[Lena]

I remember reading something saying that this cross was impossible, as the two species although closely related had different number of chromosomes.

Is it possible for you to get pics of the two involved in the paring for us?

A perfect example for you is a mule. A Donkey x Horse hybrid. The number of chromosomes are completely off.

 

[Crazygecko]

I am personaly not a fan of crossing species. But here is something to think about when trying to make this cross if it is even possible. I will use the Donkey x Horse = mule as an example I got from wiki donkey.

Donkey hybrids
A male donkey (jack) can be crossed with a female horse to produce a mule. A male horse can be crossed with a female donkey (jennet or jenny) to produce a hinny. (In the United Kingdom, the word hinny is not used). A female donkey in the UK is called a mare, or jenny and the word jennet in the UK is more commonly applied to the offspring of a female donkey and a male horse, regardless of whether the foal is female or male.[citation needed]

Horse-donkey hybrids are almost always sterile because horses have 64 chromosomes whereas donkeys have 62, producing offspring with 63 chromosomes. Mules are much more common than hinnies. This is believed to be caused by two factors, the first being proven in cat hybrids, that when the chromosome count of the male is the higher, fertility rates drop (as in the case of stallion x jennet).[citation needed] The lower progesterone production of the jenny may also lead to early embryonic loss. In addition, there are less-scientific reasons: Due to different mating behavior, jacks are often more willing to cover mares than stallions are to breed jennys. Further, mares are usually larger than jennys and thus have more room for the ensuing foal to grow in the womb, resulting in a larger animal at birth. It is commonly believed that mules are more easily handled and also physically stronger than hinnies, making them more desirable for breeders to produce, and it is unquestioned that mules are more common in total number.

The offspring of a zebra-donkey cross is called a zonkey, zebroid, zebrass, or zedonk;[13] zebra mule is an older term, but still used in some regions today. The foregoing terms generally refer to hybrids produced by breeding a male zebra to a female donkey. Zebra hinny, zebret and zebrinny all refer to the cross of a female zebra with a male donkey. Zebrinnies are rarer than zedonkies because female zebras in captivity are most valuable when used to produce full-blooded zebras.[14] There are not enough female zebras breeding in captivity to spare them for hybridizing; there is no such limitation on the number of female donkeys breeding.

For at least the past century, a few donkeys and burros in Mexico have been painted with white stripes to amuse tourists. These are not hybrids.

An animal which may look like a zebra-donkey hybrid because of its distinctly striped hindquarters and hind legs is the okapi, which has no relationship to either of those species. Okapi are most closely related to the giraffe. In addition to the rear stripes, okapi have some striping near the top of their forelegs.

Now if a AFT x leapord gecko is possible. I think for best results we would need to know what species has the higher chromosome count and use that species as the Female and the one with the lower chromosome count as the male.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Gecko keepers have been trying to cross the two species for years, without success. They are completely different genus, from different continents and hemispheres, and a hybrid is unlikely.

I have heard that the two species will breed, but only infertile eggs were produced. If any viable offspring were produced from such a pairing, genetic testing would have to be done to actually prove they were a hybrid.

BTW, a horse and a donkey are of the same genus: Equus caballus + Equus asinus which combined makes a mule: Equus mulus. It is believed that mules are generally sterile due to the fact that donkeys have 62 chromosomes, whereas horses have 64.

This also brings up an ethical debate as to whether or not combining two distinctly different species is the right thing to do.



edit: (Jay, we posted at the exact same time... sorry if it sounds like I was parroting you!)

 

[gage]

that would be intresting if he makes a hybrid

 

[Crazygecko]

lol Marcia. I myself am on the side of the ethical debate on not combining two different species. But everyone has there opinion and if it is at all possible this cross will be done just like the many that are done in snakes. I personaly hope it cant be done.

 

[Lena]

I just can't understand why anyone who selectively breeds something for unnatural traits or owns the product of such breeding can be against this kind of experimentation. To me, hybridization is just another part of selective breeding.

Though I respect your opinions on the matter.

Different genre may bring up an issue, however they are genetically very close as they are both of the subfamily 'Eublepharinae'.

Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids.

-Wikipedia

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I just can't understand why anyone who selectively breeds something for unnatural traits or owns the product of such breeding can be against this kind of experimentation.

I am not saying I am for or against this. However, when it comes to breeding leopard geckos, the 'selective' breeding we do does not produce anything unnatural. Even if certain morphs of the same species are unlikely to occur naturally in the wild, the colors and patterns we have today are a result of combining and optimizing existing genetic traits.

There is nothing 'natural' about combining two separate species that come from completely different continents, hemispheres, and environmental conditions... because the likelihood of them making physical contact with each other in nature is impossible. This is the reason that Mother Nature prevents viable and/or fertile offspring from such crosses.

 

[BettaDragon]

I don't mind hybrid animals in some cases. However the resulting hybrid from some pairings would be cruelty to it to simply allow it to survive. One example being the rabbit-human hybrids created in China for stem cell research. These embryos are all destroyed before significant development occurs due to the fact that if allowed to survive, they would have a life of pain due to the differences in anatomy. Here's an article on the research. http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2003/Human-Rabbit-Clone-Embryo14aug03.htm

This is a much more extreme case of hybridization but it proves my point. Whether or not a AFTxleo would have bodily problems is the question. Do they both have the same internal anatomy? And what would the environmental requirements be for the animal as its parents come from different habitats?

Also, intergeneric hybrids are possible and are very commonly seen in plants.

 

[Lena]

I am not saying I am for or against this. However, when it comes to breeding leopard geckos, the 'selective' breeding we do do not produce anything unnatural. Even if certain morphs of the same species are unlikely to occur naturally in the wild, the colors and patterns we have today are a result of combining and optimizing existing genetic traits.

Take a moment, if you will, to examine a leo like my own. In the wild she'd stick out like a sore thumb. While the traits exist and can be enhanced, that's not to say that they are natural. Quite the contrary, they don't exist in the wild because they would leave the leos at a disadvantage. In that way, I feel that selective breeding and hybridization are one in the same. Both activities encourage things to occur that would not otherwise happen naturally.

I don't mind hybrid animals in some cases. However the resulting hybrid from some pairings would be cruelty to it to simply allow it to survive. One example being the rabbit-human hybrids created in China for stem cell research. These embryos are all destroyed before significant development occurs due to the fact that if allowed to survive, they would have a life of pain due to the differences in anatomy. Here's an article on the research. http://www.mindfully.org/GE/2003/Hum...ryo14aug03.htm

This is a much more extreme case of hybridization but it proves my point. Whether or not a AFTxleo would have bodily problems is the question. Do they both have the same internal anatomy? And what would the environmental requirements be for the animal as its parents come from different habitats?

Also, intergeneric hybrids are possible and are very commonly seen in plants.

Well, that goes far beyond the hybridization of two members of the same subfamily. Hahaha. That is.. Sick. Thanks for sharing!

And of course, if a hybrid were to occur, and if that hybrid was obviously in pain or unable to function properly, that would undoubtedly be the end of it. But, considering their close relativity, I would imagine their internal layout and what-have-you are quite similar, you can kind of see that just by comparing the two visually.

 

[BettaDragon]

And of course, if a hybrid were to occur, and if that hybrid was obviously in pain or unable to function properly, that would undoubtedly be the end of it. But, considering their close relativity, I would imagine their internal layout and what-have-you are quite similar, you can kind of see that just by comparing the two visually.

I'm not very familiar with the internal anatomy of the two but many similar looking animals have very different internal anatomy from each other. If the anatomy is similar inside and out there shouldn't be too much of a problem. However the problem of husbandry due to the two different environments still exists.

 

[Lena]

From what I've read, the husbandry is very similar isn't it? Other than the issue of humidity?

Also, because of their close relation (being subfamily members), this would suggest that not only do they share similar external structures such as eyelids but also that their internal structures are also similar.

 

[Gregg M]

This is a much more extreme case of hybridization but it proves my point. Whether or not a AFTxleo would have bodily problems is the question. Do they both have the same internal anatomy? And what would the environmental requirements be for the animal as its parents come from different habitats?

It proves nothing being that mammals and reptiles can not be compared at all... Reptilian hybrids are known for their strength and fertility where as the majority of mammalian hybrids are not fertile and tend to be weaker animals in general. Infact every reptilian hybrid in the hobby thus far has proven to be very fertile.

Also, leos and fat tails care requirements are not very different. Infact, many keepers keep their leos and fat tails in pretty much the same set up with the same temps... Paper towel substrate, humid hide, dry hide, in a rack or glass tank... A happy medium for such a hybrid can be found very easily..

With that being said, the only problem I can see with this hybrid is that in time it may take away from the purity of leo genetics by being mixed in and vice versa... Then again, when you breed animals in captivity you throw natural selection out the window anyway...

My personal opinion on the matter is that it may not be the greatest idea in the world but who am I to say it should not be done...

It would be quite interesting to see the results of such a cross...

 

[supperl]

I think it could be interesting to see what comes out. But thats the point. I mean it could be an normal animal but also a poor little one with much pain who knows that. Why test something that could harm a babygecko?
To internal structures, they mostlikely will be the same but for this same as everything we would need a prove not just saying "it looks the same so it should be" as we already know