Are all APTORs 100% het RAPTOR？

[Vanckey]

Hi everyone We know that RAPTORs contain tremper albino gene and eclipse gene, and APTORs lack the homo eclipse so that they express normal albino eyes.

I wonder whether all all APTORs re 100% het RAPTOR (het eclipse) ? Can we get RAPTOR from RAPTOR×APTOR ?

By the way, I found APTORs are more redder than RAPTOR in general, am i right? how to explain this ? Thank you!

Below are my fresh AP hatchings

 

[fallen_angel]

Sorry I don't know any of the answers to your questions, but your babies are gorgeos, congrats!

 

[Kirksherps]

thats funny because i was just talking about this. yes all aptors can make raptors. they are not hets by definition. im not sue how it works but it does LOL.
as far as the aptors being redder. dont know why but its definitely true in my opinion they better looking.
pictured below is from an aptor to raptor pairing a jungle and a raptor (and its twin). Kirk

 

[Ian S.]

Both aptors and raptors can both be remarkably colored. Not all aptors would be het for raptor although a good majority are.

 

[godzillizard]

I have alot to say about this so I'll try and keep it short Every single Aptor has the genetics to produce Raptors. They just produce less of them than if you breed Raptor to raptor--this is a line bred morph. And alot of traits, when line bred to this extent, will stabilize to the point of seeming recessive--but, this trait is a polygenic recessive (if it's a recessive at all), so technically, there is no such thing as a het Raptor. All the Aptors from the first year of the project eventually proved out to be "het" for raptor. Because a Raptor is essentially just a "super" Aptor. My best guess as to what causes the eyes in the raptor is the inversion of pattern (from banded to "super" striped). Just look at the other morphs with eye stuff going on--we have Super snows, which are "super" stripes. And we have blizzards, which also have the opposite of the banded pattern. I'd bet my collection that the eye traits emerge from the genetic path that causes these types of patterns.

Aptors are generally more colorful because they aren't quite as stretched out (pigment wise) as most Raptors. Just stretch out a colored rubber band--the more you stretch it, the less bold the color becomes

 

[Ian S.]

Ok I guess I should start by saying that I am not working with either aptors or raptors but I have for the most part followed the genetics. The eclipse gene is a recessive mutation completely seperate from the aptor. The a.p.t.o.r. (Albino Patternless Tremper Orange.) Is an albino patternless most likely of red stripe lineage, that is created when breeding a stripe to a reverse stripe. It's the double homo form of the reverse stripe and the stripe.The two patterns cancel each other out wich is the patternles portion of the equation. The R.A.P.T.O.R. (Red eyed Patternless Tremper Orange) is the eclipse/snake eyed/solid eyed version of the aptor. Has it changed?? and what about rubber bands now?

 

[paulnj]

I am a sponge when it comes to genetics, but am also smart enough to not believe everything wholeheartedly.

With that said....

I truely do believe the eclipse eye trait comes from the gene unlooker that is stripe/ reverse stripe. A true APTOR should indeed be 100% capable of making raptors / eclipses.

I have 2 issues to state that go against the theory and they are:

How am I hatching banded eclipse/ banded raptors if those stripe genes aren't being expressed visually?

And you need a true APTOR, not those tang trempers that some folks pawn off as a "APTOR pos het raptor" from het to het :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[godzillizard]

How am I hatching banded eclipse/ banded raptors if those stripe genes aren't being expressed visually?

It's polygenic. The traits do not need to be fully expressed, only contained in some form within the animal. If a gecko is banded, but even one of its parents was a classic Raptor, it will eventually produce red eyed albinos, in ALL pattern forms, of course, depending on what types you breed it to.

And you need a true APTOR, not those tang trempers that some folks pawn off as a "APTOR pos het raptor" from het to het

Amen, brother

It's the double homo form of the reverse stripe and the stripe.The two patterns cancel each other out wich is the patternles portion of the equation.

Not quite, it's actually the next form of jungle/stripe/reverse stripe, NOT stripe and reverse stripe being expressed at the same time, but the next step in the development of pattern.

The eclipse gene is a recessive mutation completely seperate from the aptor.

not in my experience! It may be a polygenic recessive...but thats an entirely different ballgame...

 

[godzillizard]

And you need a true APTOR, not those tang trempers that some folks pawn off as a "APTOR pos het raptor" from het to het

I had to ad: if you go by Ron's odds, he got one Aptor (when breeding multi-het to multi-het) from over 900 eggs--not the kind of odds I'd bet the farm on...

 

[Gazz]

IMO not all APTOR are 100% eclipse but a hell of alot are.Think how meny het RAPTOR X het RAPTOR breeding there has been.And every time this happens you get the 50%HETeclipse.And of course same with the T_albino.There a lot of people with these 50%HET eclipse leo's out there but you don't find out till you breed them.

 

[bohannbj]

This gene "unlocker" that you here of is to the best of my knowledge a myth. I teach genetics and I have never once heard of an unlocker of genes. There is certainly comorbidity between genes (red hair + green eyes) but they are not tied together. APTORS don't always have a RAPTOR gene, but most breeders have bred the RAPTOR gene in the line by now. I think people need to be careful when they start creating genetic terms that have no scientific basis. Just to be sure though I will check with my department head and make sure I'm correct, because I would hate to be a hypocrit. If I'm wrong I will post back tommorow.
Brent

 

[SaSobek]

All true Aptors and "patternless stripes" are het Raptor.

that is how the raptor came about. I have inside information and first hand experience with the matter.

First off the eye trait in the raptor. did come from the aptor/"patternless stripe" line

Alberto from A&M created s separate line of eclipse and raptor "making them from scratch. what as done was Red stripes were crossed to giant stripes and revers stripes. from that it made "patternless stripes" not all babies from the cross were "patternless stripe" but all of the "patternless stripe" animals were held back. from that the females were put in two groups (breed to two different males)
one set of females was breed to a "patternless stripe" male
the results of that group did produce some Eclipse and i think a raptor or two (im not sure on the raptor part because it was a longer odds to get the albino with het albino to het albino) it also didnt take 900 animals for alberto to do it so i dont know if ron was making it seem harder then it actually is. :main_thumbsup:

the other set of girls was breed to a Raptor male
that set produced Raptors and eclipse.

ok so now we know how the eye trait was created. once the eye trait is expressed. it starts to act like a recessive trait by its self. thats why some call it a gean unlocker. because the Pattern makes a trait pop out that acts on its own with out the pattern its self.

proof of this can be seen in the Mack Raptor project.
A Raptor was breed to a super snow. from this banded mack snows were made that were het Raptor

there also is such a thing as a het Raptor. But when it is said het Raptor on an albino it must be looked at as a Double het (het for the eye trait and het for the pattern).

when a non albino is called a het Raptor it should be looked at as a triple het ( pattern, eye trait, and albino)

so the banded mack het Raptors were actually a mack snow Triple het (pattern, albino and the eye trait)

and the pattern part of the this mess is the fun part it isnt just banded and "patternless". it gives you every thing inbetween as well. so you can get banded jungle stripe rev stripe and "patternless stripe" so it is actually hard to get a True Mack Raptor.

i Hope that helps out. like i said all of this info was actually done over the last 3-4 years

so there is actually 2 ways to get a Raptor
The long way having it express by selectively breeding pattern.
and the short way breeding "het" to "het"

and to put one more little twist to it. Raptor X Raptor dose not always = Raptor. so the long and the short of it is that the it is not simple to explain how it works thats why it dose confuse alot of people.

 

[paulnj]

Take a bow my friend!!!!!

Perfect info with the proof to back it up:main_thumbsup:

 

[SaSobek]

thanks paul

it was like you and your stories at daytona you had us dieing

 

[godzillizard]

there also is such a thing as a het Raptor.

maybe I'm splitting hairs again, but my conscience tells me that it should be disclosed that the trait is polygenic, not a mono-recessive, and it does not neccesarily behave like a simple recessive.

and to put one more little twist to it. Raptor X Raptor dose not always = Raptor. so the long and the short of it is that the it is not simple to explain how it works thats why it dose confuse alot of people.

it's polygenic! that's why it doesn't always express, and also why the odds are so hard to hit unless you breed specific expressions together.

The more I work with these super designer morphs, the more questions pop up. I've been working with (r)aptors for only 3 years, and I've done ALOT of experimental breedings. I simply post what I've construed from my experience. The last thing I want is for people to be uninformed or told half truths. I've spent many thousands on specific breeders only to find out that my odds were ten times worse than I was led to believe. I just don't want anyone to get burned like that, after experiencing it first hand.

 

[Kirksherps]

OMG THE BROWN CRAYON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SaSobek]

All lights on Paul hahahahha

 

[paulnj]

takes a bow ... maybe again in whiteplains after I move a few.

 

[Kirksherps]

bring the eggs paul ill give you a good price $$$$$

 

[paulnj]

See what I can do.....