Are Blizzards a true leucistic?

[Jeff876533]

Any special morphs of the Leucistic Leo's???

hey i was looking on www.lllreptile.com and i saw the Leucistic Leopard Gecko. I thought they looked pretty cool. Are there any special morphs of them???

 

[eyelids]

Those are just Patternless. As far as morphs you got Patternless Albinos and Banana Blizzards. There hasn't been a true leucistic leo produced yet. It'll be cool when one finally does appear though.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I agree. Many times the Murphy Patternless morph is incorrectly referred to as a leucistic.

 

[Ian S.]

uhhhh what happened??

 

[Ian S.]

Those are just Patternless. As far as morphs you got Patternless Albinos and Banana Blizzards. There hasn't been a true leucistic leo produced yet. It'll be cool when one finally does appear though.

The blizzard is actually the true leucistic as far as leucism standards go. The only reason we see the yellow sque sometimes I beleive is due to the patternless influence. When the first blizzards hatched out prehistoric pets and I think Mark Bell bred the blizzard to the patternless in order to prove that they were in fact not the same recessive gene as the, what has been recently dubbed, Murphy's patternless.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Even the blizzard isn't a true leucistic. Until a true one comes along, I'd just as soon see that word go away.

 

[IMacBevan]

Shanti,

I'm not trying to start a war here but I'm curious, how do you define Leucistic? As near as I can tell, the blizzard is a leucistic. By all appearances it matches every other leucistic reptile I have ever seen. The only difference is that they sometimes have a yellow wash (but some leucistic Ball pythons show a slight patterning of other color) and that the dermal melanophores are partially functional, which allows them to lighten and darken. They have the dark iris as is seem in just about every other leucistic.

As I said, I'm just trying to get a consensus on what defines Leucisism in Leopard Geckos.

Thanks,

Ian

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I go by the general definition of leucism (lol...but try looking it up in a dictionary!). Most sources agree that leucism is the absence of all pigment in the body with normal/black/blue eyes. From everything I've read, leucistic animals are missing melanocytes, xanthophores, and erythophores (pretty sure that's the term I'm looking for)...creating a pure white or creamy white animal (depending on other factors such as skin thickness).

That being said, When you look at a blizzard like this, it's very easy to assume it's leucistic.

However, these animals are also blizzards that have simply been line breed to bring out other colors. This isn't a slight pigment change, it's a very noticeable difference. I've seen blizzards range from nearly pure white to nearly black (and everything between), pale to lemon yellow, and even small amounts of orange in the legs and a start of a miniscule carrot tail. The ability to produce such a wide varience in the intensity of chromatophores like this rule them out as being a true leucistic as far as I'm concerned.

Seen at: http://www.crestedgecko.com/BL group 1.JPG

 

[IMacBevan]

I guess it is a difference in definitions. There are three main pigment cells in reptiles - melanophores, xanthophores (erythrophores are a type of xanthophore) and iridiophores. From what I have been told, the leucistic has either non or malfunctioning xanthophores and melanophore and a small number of functioning iridiophores. Iridiophores create color by scattering light (they don't produce a color pigment but produce little light scattering organelles called schemechromes) thus they can possibly produce a yellow wash through the Tyndall effect.

In terms of the dark blizzards, reptiles actually have two melanophores one in the epidermal layer and one in the dermis. The dermal melanophore has dendritic arms which move up and around the other chromatophores and reptiles have the ability to regulate and move melanin along these arms. That's how they get the ability to change colors, most commonly seen in chameleons, but I've seen it in my leopards as well as they get lighter and darker depending on stress and temperature.

Note my earlier definition said non or malfunctioning chromatophores, it is possible that blizzards are producing some melanin which allows them to get lighter and darker. I have yet to see an adult blizzard that has the ability to get really dark. Those I have seen (mine included) never got any darker then a light slate grey.

When blazing blizzards are produced (amelanistic x blizzard), that grey wash completely disappears, thus showing that there is some melanophore involvement, I just don't think that they are fully functional.

I don't believe this is a pattern trait as some have said and from everything I have read and studied, the closest fit is Leucistic.

Ian

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I'll agree, it's the closest fit in the leopard world. As they say, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :main_laugh: :main_thumbsup:

I can certainly also agree the dermal melanophores are still functional in blizzards. The white blizzard in my example will turn a very light grey when annoyed.

However, I don't believe the color produced by midnight blizzards and banana blizzards (I'm refering to the conventional use of the term, not bliz x patty) are a result of iridiophores at all. If you get a chance to see a very yellow banana blizzard, you'll quickly see that not only is the pigment very bright (not even close to a wash), but it has a very solid apperance in the upper dermal layers...like the yellow lies on top of everything else. As for the midnight blizzards, I've never seen one truely black, but I have seen them very, very dark in a relaxed state, and nearly black when stressed. The melanin present in a midnight blizzard is there in a permanent state, in the higher dermal layers as well (epidermis I would guess I should say! LOL)

 

[Ian S.]

I just thought that I'd also add that leucism is also one one of the hardest recessive morphs to recreate let alone create a phenotypical double recessive leucistic, which could explain why it's been such a pain in the butt to create the blazing blizzards. (Now that I think about it isn't leucism more of a mutation rather than a morph such as the "Murphy's" patternless???) Think I remember reading some thing about that a few years back. Any ways, I believe both the las vegas and the Tremper blazing blizzards went through numerous double het breedings before the blazing blizzards were actually created. As I've said before, in some species, leucism has only been seen in existence once in a lifetime with fruitless attemps to recreate, which could explain the difficulties in creating the bell blazing.:main_thumbsup:

-Have no fear though I'm determined as may others are who are working on them.-
We'll get em.
Kelli proved it's possible.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

LOL....And here I always thought morph was just a pretty name for mutation! I'm not so sure on the tangs and other line breed traits, but couldn't you consider all of the phenotypical traits that are recessive, co-dom, incomplete dom, and autosomal dominate mutations from the normal "wild type"???

An interesting point on the double recessives, Ian.

I'm still firmly in the camp of "not leucistic". I can't think of even one other example of leucism where it was shown the amount of the chromatophores present could be altered through selective breeding. It may be the short amount of time between generations is allowing us to see results faster....but so far every lucy gator looks alike, and every black eyed lucy BP looks like the next, as well as the blue eyeds. I've seen other examples of leucistic animals, but the 3 previously listed are the most common ones I've seen.

 

[Ian S.]

LOL....And here I always thought morph was just a pretty name for mutation!

LOL me too!! Which is why I more or less asked incase you or anyone had any more info about it. I do specifically remember reading something of the sort years ago. It could have been complete hog wash.

I'm not so sure on the tangs and other line breed traits, but couldn't you consider all of the phenotypical traits that are recessive, co-dom, incomplete dom, and autosomal dominate mutations from the normal "wild type"???

Sort of I think the super form would actually be considered the mutation. no?

I can't think of even one other example of leucism where it was shown the amount of the chromatophores present could be altered through selective breeding. It may be the short amount of time between generations is allowing us to see results faster....but so far every lucy gator looks alike, and every black eyed lucy BP looks like the next, as well as the blue eyeds. I've seen other examples of leucistic animals, but the 3 previously listed are the most common ones I've seen.

hmm another very good point yourself. Damn it you continue to make me think stop it hurts LOL. Another example of that would be the leucistic texas rat snakes which all look the same.

As far as the ball pythons go. A part of the black eyed leucistic in ball pythons makes me wonder if the leucism has anything to do with the snake eye and solid black eyes in the blizzards. How come it doesn't show in the hets if it is simply a seperate recessive for example, like the eclipse? :main_yes:

 

[Grinning Geckos]

That I couldn't even begin to guess on. So far, there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to the snake eyes and eclipses in leos. It has been showing up in the RAPTOR and patternless redstripes (same morph IMO...RAPTORS being the albino version), and in blizzards in an almost hap-hazzard fashion. Has anyone been able to pin down that the red eyes in RAPTORS are inhereted in a recessive fashion? It does seem to be looking that way, but I haven't worked with them and I don't follow them enough to know one way or the other. In blizzards, while common, it seems very hit or miss.

Adding to that, are the eclipses in PRS activated by the same gene as the eclipses in blizzards?? I don't think I've heard of anyone working on that question.

AND AN EVEN BIGGER BRAIN BUSTER....how about Jeremy's completely random snake eye in his RRS project?? Or Steve Sykes yellow Mack-ish looking eclipse?? OR....Kelli/Marcia's BEP??

There are so many unanswered questions when it comes to these eye traits! Where is a brain blowing up smiley when you need one?

 

[Ian S.]

The only reason I mention it with the blizzards for one, is that it's fairly common enough in them to dub it a hit or miss IMO. Two it's a common trait seen in leucism such as the leucistic burmese, ball python & gators etc.. Three as I said, It's common enough in the blizzards as well as the fact that blizzards are bred by so many, that I think people should be hatching normal hets with the snake eyes and black eyes if it was in fact a seperate gene at work instead of it just occuring in the blizzards. I think it may possibly be another link to the leucistic factor.

With Tremper you never know there always seems to be more that meets the eye.
LOL
READY
What if.. HE HE the eclipse in fact didn't come from the aptors rather than a wild type offspring. He has to be outcrossing. I just cannot fathome that the man has been breeding 28 generations of leos and not outcrossing his bloodlines.
As far as the others they're way to far off in the early stages.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I do see where you're going...but the thing that troubles me is that it does seem to be hit or miss. With the BP, don't the black eyed lucys ALWAYS have black eyes (same for blue eyed)? I've never heard of a BP lucy with normal eyes. I would think in the blizzards it would be much more consistent if it were linked to the (possible) leucism.

It's why I'm highly curious as to if the PRS/RAPTOR eclipse is activated by the same gene as blizzards. In theory (if it's the same gene), it should be possible to breed them together and create an eclipse the is het blizz and PRS (if that's a recessive gene). I've only seen evidence suggesting that they're linked to the individual morphs, but at the same time I don't know what experiments have been done to try to separate the eclipse trait from their respective morphs.

 

[eyelids]

Three as I said, It's common enough in the blizzards as well as the fact that blizzards are bred by so many, that I think people should be hatching normal hets with the snake eyes and black eyes if it was in fact a seperate gene at work instead of it just occuring in the blizzards. I think it may possibly be another link to the leucistic factor.

I hatched a Snake Eyed Mack Snow from Mack Snow Pastel het Bell x Snake Eyed Blizzard. It's so confusing... I'm pairing the same male with my Eclipse Blizzard possible het Bell soon so hopefully I'll get some babies with solid black eyes from her.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

LOL, You're certainly right that Tremper always seems to have something up his sleeve.

OK....Here's MY theory for the RAPTORS/APTORS. Kind of a "chicken and the egg" scenario. I PERSONALLY feel he happened upon RAPTORS first, said something along the lines of "CHA-CHING...a new morph! It needs a cool name....something bold, like RAPTOR. But wait, I should make RAPTOR mean something." Thus the creation of a very awkward acronym. Then, probably at the same time, he realised that the RAPTORS didn't always have red eyes while simultaneously, being the marketing genius he is, decided to release the APTOR to make as much money as he could BEFORE announcing the RAPTOR to make even more money.

Conspiracy theorist, eat your heart out!

That didn't really help the topic! LOL I could have it wrong (I sorta doubt it)....it's possible he crossed a redstripe and reverse stripe (maybe het Tremper), and came up with the APTOR (albino PRS) then crossed an eclipse wild into the mix to create the RAPTORS. No matter how he created them/ happened upon them, I would put money on him naming the RAPTOR first and releasing the APTOR first to make more money.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I hatched a Snake Eyed Mack Snow from Mack Snow Pastel het Bell x Snake Eyed Blizzard. It's so confusing... I'm pairing the same male with my Eclipse Blizzard possible het Bell soon so hopefully I'll get some babies with solid black eyes from her.

Interesting!! You'll have to keep us up to date on the offspring with that pair.

 

[eyelids]

Interesting!! You'll have to keep us up to date on the offspring with that pair.

All of the eggs are hatched from MSPHB x SEB. The last clutch just hatched yesterday so I haven't gotten a close look at their eyes. So far it's 1 of 6 with snake eyes.

EDIT: math sucks!