Are Blizzards a true leucistic?

[Grinning Geckos]

All of the eggs are hatched from MSPHB x SEB. The last clutch just hatched yesterday so I haven't gotten a close look at their eyes. So far it's 1 of 6 with snake eyes. If it were co-dom you'd assume these last 2 babies will both be snake eyed making it 50/50.

Ahhh....but that would be assuming lady luck is on your side. As many can testify to, what SHOULD hatch and what DO hatch are two totally seperate things. It may still be co-dom (doubtful, given how long snake eye blizzards have been around), but the odds just didn't play out in your favor.

 

[IMacBevan]

so to push the subject back towards the leucistic trait, everyone is correct in the statement that all the BP leucistics, burmese leucistics, and texas rat leucistics generally look the same. HOWEVER, none of these species of snakes is renowned for their color changing ability. In fact very few snakes have control over their chromatophores to the extent a leopard gecko does (the only ones that come to mind are some of the insulur species of Boa constrictor such as the hogg island boa)

I suggest that the variation on blizzards is due in part to the added influence of that effect.

Also not all lecusitic burmese look like Bob Clark's female, I have a photo of an apparent leucistic burm that is faintly patterned with light grey markings. I've also got several pictures of leucistic BP which in one case is faintly marked and in the other is marked quite drastically with both melanin and xanthin. In most cases these pictures were found on the websites of reputable breeders such NERD and VPI. In the Burms case it was supposedly in Dave Lawson's collection but seems to have disappeared. If I can figure out how to post the pictures I will. If you are interested I can email them to you.

So if you think this trait is a mutation (which I would agree with) what would you suggest it be called? Blizzard doesn't quite fit with the likes of amelanistic, axanthic or anerythristic.

Ian B

 

[Grinning Geckos]

so to push the subject back towards the leucistic trait, everyone is correct in the statement that all the BP leucistics, burmese leucistics, and texas rat leucistics generally look the same. HOWEVER, none of these species of snakes is renowned for their color changing ability. In fact very few snakes have control over their chromatophores to the extent a leopard gecko does (the only ones that come to mind are some of the insulur species of Boa constrictor such as the hogg island boa)

I suggest that the variation on blizzards is due in part to the added influence of that effect.

Also not all lecusitic burmese look like Bob Clark's female, I have a photo of an apparent leucistic burm that is faintly patterned with light grey markings. I've also got several pictures of leucistic BP which in one case is faintly marked and in the other is marked quite drastically with both melanin and xanthin. In most cases these pictures were found on the websites of reputable breeders such NERD and VPI. In the Burms case it was supposedly in Dave Lawson's collection but seems to have disappeared. If I can figure out how to post the pictures I will. If you are interested I can email them to you.

So if you think this trait is a mutation (which I would agree with) what would you suggest it be called? Blizzard doesn't quite fit with the likes of amelanistic, axanthic or anerythristic.

Ian B

Seeing those pictures would be interesting. I've never seen a leucistic burm.

I guess part of the problem is finding a consistant definition of the term. Pretty much everywhere that I've looked, leucism is refered to as a complete lack of pigment (and it's rare for them to elaborate), UNLESS you look into leucism in birds. Leucism in brids is the only area I've found where they refer to partially working chromatophores in some cases.

I'd love a few good zoology/biology books right about now.

As far as giving it a name, you're right....it doesn't quite fit with amelanistic,axanthic, or anerythristic. At times it's all of the above, and others none of the above. Until I can find some additional recources on leucism, I still have to say it doesn't fit there as well. But, who says it has to be any of those?? Trying to make it fit neatly into a currently defined mutation is the whole problem to begin with. Because it doesn't fit neatly goes to suggest it may be something else.....and I doubt the scientific world is all that concerned with classifying a mutation not found in the wild population (I assume).

It just seems like people call it a leucistic because it's close enough....but I've never been one to settle for a "good enough" answer. (I know...I'm a pain in the rear ) I still have too many questions that I can't find the anwser to...so if you think you have research I haven't seen - pass it on!

 

[IMacBevan]

Well, let's see if I've figured out the whole photo thing. Keep in Mind these were found on the web and are not my photos. They do come from reliable sources, so I don't think they are photoshopped

.
This is the Leucistic Burmese owned at one time by Dave Lawson. Status of this snake is unknown now.

This is a leucistic ball that Tracy and Dave Barker hatched out if I remember correctly. You can see some slight markings on it and an overall smokey wash. Not the brilliant white leucistic we are used to seeing. If this were an artifact of skin thickness due to age (typically hatchling leucistic Texas rats are pinkish until they age and their skin thickens) then we would expect it to be pink, not grey.

This is from NERD, if memory serves me correctly. Once again an apparent leucistic with some other influence going on.

just some food for thought
Ian B.

 

[IMacBevan]

Oops got two out of three.

Here is the third picture:

 

[IMacBevan]

Also how do you account for the appearance of the paradox amelanistics? They've cropped up in many differnet species. Steve Sykes hatched out a Paradox Amelanistic this season that he posted on this site.

Here are a few more paradox examples, once again not my pictures but found on the web.

Paradox Amelanistic Ball

Paradox Amelanistic Boa

Here's a boa that couldn't make up it's mind. Part amelanistic, part anerythristic. Even had one anerythristic eye and one amelanistic eye. Not to sure on the status of this animal, though.

Just some food for thought.

Ian B.

 

[IMacBevan]

Here's the odd colored boa I mentioned.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

LOL....I can't and don't try to explain the paradox animals at all. The one consistant thing with them is the distribution of the chromatophores is extreamly random. I've heard of people trying to breed paradoxes to reproduce the results with no luck.

 

[Ian S.]

We've actually seen what I beleive may be a form of paradox actually in the blizzards just as in that leusistic burm and ball python. Well not exactly paradox. They have random dark black spotting on the body and head. I think it's more or less like those examples of burmese and ball python shown above in the essance that it appears to be normal spotting that occurs in a wild type leo's pattern. It appears to most evident in the burms washed normal pattern. I'll try to find some pics.

 

[Ian S.]

So if you think this trait is a mutation (which I would agree with) what would you suggest it be called? Blizzard doesn't quite fit with the likes of amelanistic, axanthic or anerythristic.
Ian B

Well as far as the name is concerned I think that blizzard lizard does A ok, seeing as though it's already what everyone knows them as. I trully feel that it should correctly be recognized as the first true leucistic in leopard geckos seeing as though the patternless were wrongly dubbed leucistics although a very similar beautiful mutaion.

Hey Shanti,
Wanna start a mutual poll for people? Maybe pointing them to this discussion? I'm curious as to what others may think.

 

[IMacBevan]

Wow, two Ians who agree on the name :?

I tend to concur with you about calling it a leucistic in terms of it's scientific nomenclature and a Blizzard to the hobby as a whole.

I, do have a paradox blizzard out of Kelli's lines from back in 2002, which was the last time I was in Fort Worth. I forget where I read it, but I seem to recall that one line of thinking on the dark spots on the leucistics was that it was a birth mark of some sort, not necessarily an inheritable trait. Who knows, I should be breeding my male from Kelli this year to some blazing blizzards that I picked up earlier in the season and we shall see what hatched out.

I'm intrigued by the poll idea. Shanti how about you?

Ian B

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Poll works for me! If you guys haven't set one up yet, I'll get to it.

 

[Ian S.]

very nice! you rock girl!!
-thank you-

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I can add a poll to this thread if you tell me what choices you would like to have! Otherwise, I will combine the threads... whichever you prefer.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

In case you haven't been following the discussion, there has been a friendly debate on the blizzard morph being a true leucistic or not. So come on people, lets us know what YOU think! To see the original thread: http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=1565

For being a true leucistic:

- Started out as being solid "white".
- Eyes can be black as seen in leucistic forms of other animals.
- Leucistic mutations are known to be hard to combine with other traits. A possible explanation for why there has only been one proven Bell Blizzard and one proven Banana Blizzard (homozygous Patternless and Blizzard).
- Examples of paradox blizzards exist. While not exclusive to the leucistic trait, it has been shown in other leucistic species.


Against being a true leucistic:

- Dermal melanophores are active (unknown if they are fully or partially functional), allowing them to darken with stress.
- Blizzards have been selectively breed to increase the amounts of epidural melanophores and/or xanthophores. Examples of this ability in other leucistic animal are currently unknown.
- Eye coloration is not consistent as it is with other known species with a leucistic mutation. Blizzard eyes can be normal, snake-eye, or eclipse....with an unknown inheritance pattern. Eye coloration may or may not be linked to the Blizzard trait. A snake-eyed blizzard produced a het blizzard offspring with snake-eyes, suggesting the eyes may not be linked as previously theorized.

I think I hit all the important bases...let me know if I left anything out! :main_thumbsup:

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I don't mind if they combine, so long as you can make the opening post the one that's on the poll. It's kind of a cliff notes version of what has been said in this thread.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Hmmm... I had a 50/50 chance of doing it right, but blew it. Let me try to fix it to where the poll info comes first, or put it back the way it was. Arrrgghhh.

 

[Ian S.]

LOL it's all good thank you much Marcia for helping us out!!:main_thumbsup:
Good lookin out sis Good lookin!

 

[Ian S.]

For being a true leucistic


- Examples of paradox blizzards exist. While not exclusive to the leucistic trait, it has been shown in other leucistic species.

I really don't know if there is enough known about the paradox to consider that to be classified as a
-for being a true leucistic-

I think the point of that was just showing the fact that some leucistics do show varied patterns.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Well, I can put that as a seperate point of neither for or against....Ian B?