Are Blizzards a true leucistic?

[eyelids]

LOL Shows how much I know about BP morphs!! Thanks Michael for setting that straight.

Nothing to worry about. You're right about the Super Mojave though. BP morphs are very confusing. I've made it a little hobby to keep up with all the snakes I'll never afford. I'd like to correct myself; the Ivory could be a Leucistic.

Here's pics of each except Lesser Platinum x Mojave...

SUPER YB or IVORY
View attachment 1126

SUPER MOJAVE or BLUE EYED LUCY
View attachment 1128

PHANTOM/LESSER LUCY
View attachment 1129

SUPER FIRE or BLACK EYED LUCY
View attachment 1127

Forgot to give credit to unknown, Prehistoric Pets, RDR, and Constrictors Unlimited.

 

[Ian S.]

Interesting!!
Check out the "blizzard" grey color on the head of that blue eyed leucistic.

 

[eyelids]

Interesting!!
Check out the "blizzard" grey color on the head of that blue eyed leucistic.

Yea it really makes me think... but I still want the blue eyes...

 

[Ian S.]

Yea it really makes me think... but I still want the blue eyes...

I hear ya. In my mind that would be the ultimate Leo solid white blue eyed:main_thumbsup:

 

[Sandra]

I don't think that that the possibility to find a more "pure" leucistic should deny the blizzard as a true leucistic. I'm speaking from my absolute ignorance, but, aren't there different types of albinism, for example, with different attributes that remind us more or less the idea we have of an albino? Why couldn't different types of leucism exist? The first albinos were so dark and their eyes showed so little amount of red that for inexperienced people it was sometimes difficult to tell if it was a dark albino or a pale normal.

Also, lizards are different from snakes. Although snakes also show some variation, it's nothing compared to the variation that leos can show the a same mutation.

 

[eyelids]

As far as I understand there's three types of Albinism. Tyrosinase positive, Tyrosinase negative and LEUCISTIC.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Wow....we're getting a really even split here!

Don't sell snakes short on their ability to have a great amount of variation. One look at Ball Pythons and Corn Snakes shows the immense variety of morphs. As for selectivly breed traits, the snakes have a much longer span of time between egg and adulthood. It's not that they don't have the ability, it's that it takes a LONG time to see results. You can selectively breed a leo for a certain trait to F3 in just 3 years .... to do the same thing in a Ball python it could take 9 years or more. It's been shown that selectively breeding pastels makes better looking pastels. So, I find that it's not that the snake lacks the ability for great variety, but more that people don't find an intrest in waiting so long to work on a line breed trait...they're still too focused on all you can do with simple genetic traits.

For the albinos, yes, your average person thinks of an albino as a T- albino, so when a T+ comes along it's certainly not what's expected. However, despite being T+ they ALWAYS follow the definition of what makes an albino.

I'm having problems finding a good, solid definition of what makes a leucistic a leucistic. That just opens the doors to people naming anything that looks like it might fit a leucistic, irregaurdless as to if it is one or not. You have to remember that when a person sees a morph for the first time, they name it whatever the heck they want ... it doesn't mean they named it correctly. Tremper said his albinos are T- when they first came out ... and we all know that they are actually T+.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

As far as I understand there's three types of Albinism. Tyrosinase positive, Tyrosinase negative and LEUCISTIC.

I've never heard that. LOL....now you're going to make me research some more. If that's true, that rules out blizzards. Even your white blizzards have functioning dermal melanophores, and selective breeding has shown they have fully functioning epidural melanophores as well.

 

[eyelids]

Here's some interesting points on leucisim from an amphibian biology article...

Leucisim, also caused by an autosomal recessive gene mutation, is an inherited defect affecting all chromatophores. Leucistic animals lack functional melanophores and xanthophores, and possess minimal iridophores. Leucistic invididuals are solid white, with no pattern, except for the eyes, which are dark blue or black. Leucism is also common in selectively bred axolotls, and these animals are easily distinguished by albinos by their solid white skin and dark eyes. Dark pigmentation is sometimes found about the body of leucistic animals, but again, melanophores are non-functional in such individuals. Some may develop dark pigment in various amounts at the time of sexual maturity, a phenomenon that is still not fully understood. Leucism is different from xanthism and albinism in that it is thought to result from a defect in the skin itself, such that the skin cannot support pigment cells. Xanthic and albonic skin is capable of gaining pigment when chromatoblasts are injected, however, such processes have no effect on leucistic skin.

http://www.livingunderworld.org/biology/caudata.shtml

 

[Grinning Geckos]

hmmmm...Something to ponder on. Trying to find anything informative on leucistic animals is frustrating at best. 9 times out of 10 you find "Leucistic = a white animal with dark eyes" or "Leucistic = lack of pigment in the skin"...nothing remotely helpful.

 

[eyelids]

hmmmm...Something to ponder on. Trying to find anything informative on leucistic animals is frustrating at best. 9 times out of 10 you find "Leucistic = a white animal with dark eyes" or "Leucistic = lack of pigment in the skin"...nothing remotely helpful.

Yea it's a pain in the butt!

I originally heard that leucistic is a form of albinism from the owner of Serpent Safari back when it was just in the Dells. We were talking about their albino gator and the leucistic one's at that zoo in Louisiana and their T+ and T- Green Iguanas. Now I've been searching for a some hard proof, but all I keep seeing is leucistic is a partial or incomplete albino...

 

[Grinning Geckos]

That's all I've found so far as well. What defines an albino is the lack of melanin (both T+ and T-), and it seems like they are stating leucism is the lack of other chromatopores in addition to the lack of melanophores (or at least melanin). Anyway, I think I'm more confused then ever!

Confused or not, I still can't fit Blizzards into the (very confusing) definition of leucism for two reasons: They DO produce melanin, which means they are not albino no matter how you look at it, and they can produce very strong amounts yellow (I have to run, otherwise I would look up the proper term LOL) which means there are other chromatophores that are perfectly capable of full function.

 

[Ian S.]

Hmmm
I didn't know that leucism is a form of albinism.
That would mean the spotted blizzards could actually be paradox.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Hmmm
I didn't know that leucism is a form of albinism.
That would mean the spotted blizzards could actually be paradox.

Spotted blizzards are called paradox as it is.

 

[IMacBevan]

Ok, time for me to chime in. Nowhere in my research have I found any corolation whatsoever between leucisism and amelanism. They are two distinct set of traits. I'll paraphrase Bechtel and Bechtels "Reptile and Amphibian Variants" but basically his research indicated that under microscopic examination of the skin of leucistic specimens did not reveal any visible melanophores or xanthophore and very few iridiophores. HOWEVER, the issue appears to be that the dermis and epidermis itself cannot support fully functional chromatophores whereas axantism, anerythrism, and amelanism are mechanical issues within the chromatophore themselves which disrupt the formation of pigment.

Experiments on axotls indicate that if you implant a normal functional chromatophore into an amelanistic, axanthic, or anerythristic individual the chromatophore will function normally. However transplanted into a leucsitic individual it will not thrive.

So amelanism and leucisism are not linked in any way. They have two different forms of expression.

 

[IMacBevan]

For me the common denominator I have seen is that the skin of a leucistic individual seems to not be able to support fully functional chromatophores. This is backs up my observations of them. I have yet to see a midnight Blizzard that is as dark as a melanistic animal should be, they still appear to be a dark grey not black. Nor have I seen a banana blizzard that is as bright as they should be. I haven't seen a banana blizzard that is as brightly colored as some of the high yellows I have seen. I'm referring to adult individuals here after they have gone through their ontogenic changes. To me that indicates that the xanthophores and melanophores may not be fully functional and therefore are only producing small ammounts of pigment. Hence the coloration we see.

So for me the key issue is lies with the dermis and epidermis not being able to support fully functional chromatophore.

Ian B.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

That's what I thought!! (About leucistic being different from albino) Thanks for posting that. Too many sources on the web have contradictory info...no one knows what the heck they are talking about!

I'm still firmly in the non-leucistic camp...but at least some better info about what IS leucistic is slowly coming out. I'd love to find some more/better info, but that's proving hard to come by!

 

[IMacBevan]

I'll dig a little deeper and see what I can find in my notes for when I lecture on this stuff to the local herp societies.

When I get the chance, I'll email a friend of mine who is the lab director for UMass Med School and got his PHD in worm genetics and see if he can point me in a direction. Though my gut tells me, we as herpetoculturalists may be on the leading edge of defining this stuff.

Ian B.

 

[eyelids]

Have you guys seen the Mack Snow Blizzards Steve Sykes hatched?

This one puts any midnights to shame...

View attachment 1187

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Wow....that's cool looking! I wonder how much that's going to change as it grows.