Breeding Enigmas

[Darcpixie]

For me, Enigmas seem to have a trade-off that is valuable to the hobby of reptile keeping, specifically the desire that many have to interact with their scaley friends. From reading about everyone's enigmas, I have noticed a common trend -- increased friendliness/handlability. My enigma, an adorable Enigma Tremper het Blizzard, is THE calmest, easiest to handle gecko. Will sit on your hand, respirations are normal, and will climb around, slowly, but with no real frenetic, distressed, quick motions.

Isn't this a trait to breed FOR? Aren't we making the gecko better for the pet trade by increasing the likelihood that the new owner will be able to safely and confidently handle this calmer gecko, and thereby, perhaps, improve the future care for this animal?

As someone with 22 snakes, with 4 years experience owning/breeding reptiles, many people who admire herps may not get one, not get it out, feed it less if it is a spastic critter, whereas the more docile, easy to handle, "predictable" animals are quite popular, and quite frequently handled. (Ball pythons, anyone? )

I previously had an adorable spider ball python, who seems to have the closest analogue to the enigma trait. The general consensus, and one I am generally comfortable with, is if it eats, drinks, poops, and copulates, then I'll give it a chance. This is much easier to do with snakes in my opinion (shed can't stick to toes!), but it is a philosophy I am applying to my Leopard Geckos. Mister E., my enigma (harhar bad pun I know) will be a pet for ME, even if he is not placed with our girls.

I just don't think that enigmas with the syndrome have nothing to offer the community, and would hope that a mere explanation of quirks and the ability to evaluate your animals for if their issues prevent the eat, drink, poop and copulate qualifications would suffice for us to further a group that is, most importantly to me, a FINE pet animal that will keep people interested in the hobby, and secondarily is a very neat quasi-paradox animal.

I wonder if not breeding to reduce syndrome, but instead breeding for the increased, non-stressed, handlability of our animals would increase or decrease the syndrome? I mean, we are breeding for PET animals here, they do not have to replicate wild behaviors in order to survive, let alone thrive, in our care. Anything, like any domesticated animal, that makes our pets more likely to be held/loved/anthropomorphized can only increase its popularity and, let's face it, success in individual homes.

Something to think about.

/goes back to work.

 

[panthergecko]

i love enigmas and when i buy a new one i will most likely breed my Enigmas

 

[HighnMighty]

If I understand what very little I understand about enigmas (from wiki) I can't really understand why this would be controversial. Can someone clarify what an enigma is? and then I'd be glad to give my two cents ahha

 

[LeoGirl575]

I used to be nervous to own enigmas, but now I own them AND breed them, and I think they are absolutely delightful to work with! Their personalities are even more awesome than non-enigma geckos, I find! I have had a great time working with them so far! That's just my experience with them!

 

[cinderbirdswing]

For me, Enigmas seem to have a trade-off that is valuable to the hobby of reptile keeping, specifically the desire that many have to interact with their scaley friends. From reading about everyone's enigmas, I have noticed a common trend -- increased friendliness/handlability. My enigma, an adorable Enigma Tremper het Blizzard, is THE calmest, easiest to handle gecko. Will sit on your hand, respirations are normal, and will climb around, slowly, but with no real frenetic, distressed, quick motions.

Isn't this a trait to breed FOR? Aren't we making the gecko better for the pet trade by increasing the likelihood that the new owner will be able to safely and confidently handle this calmer gecko, and thereby, perhaps, improve the future care for this animal?

As someone with 22 snakes, with 4 years experience owning/breeding reptiles, many people who admire herps may not get one, not get it out, feed it less if it is a spastic critter, whereas the more docile, easy to handle, "predictable" animals are quite popular, and quite frequently handled. (Ball pythons, anyone? )

I previously had an adorable spider ball python, who seems to have the closest analogue to the enigma trait. The general consensus, and one I am generally comfortable with, is if it eats, drinks, poops, and copulates, then I'll give it a chance. This is much easier to do with snakes in my opinion (shed can't stick to toes!), but it is a philosophy I am applying to my Leopard Geckos. Mister E., my enigma (harhar bad pun I know) will be a pet for ME, even if he is not placed with our girls.

I just don't think that enigmas with the syndrome have nothing to offer the community, and would hope that a mere explanation of quirks and the ability to evaluate your animals for if their issues prevent the eat, drink, poop and copulate qualifications would suffice for us to further a group that is, most importantly to me, a FINE pet animal that will keep people interested in the hobby, and secondarily is a very neat quasi-paradox animal.

I wonder if not breeding to reduce syndrome, but instead breeding for the increased, non-stressed, handlability of our animals would increase or decrease the syndrome? I mean, we are breeding for PET animals here, they do not have to replicate wild behaviors in order to survive, let alone thrive, in our care. Anything, like any domesticated animal, that makes our pets more likely to be held/loved/anthropomorphized can only increase its popularity and, let's face it, success in individual homes.

Something to think about.

/goes back to work.

In my experience, the vast difference between engima leos and spider ball pythons is that the spider ball pythons actually thrive. They eat, grow, reproduce, etc with normal frequency. Enigma leopard geckos (in my opinion) do not. I've had two enigmas, both rescues. One had to be euthanized because of frantic full body seizures, and the other, I'm contemplating euthanizing but she's never gotten quite to "that point." But she's over a year old and she's barely 12 grams. She can barely feed on her own, has to be hand fed, can't keep her balance at all, has a very bad head tilt, etc. While she is "friendly' and easy to handle, she's also not growing at anywhere near a normal rate.

It's a serious difference in quality of life to me and I will never own another enigma and I certainly will not propagate them. I can't imagine putting a new reptile owner through what I've been through with JUST those two enigmas. I've seen healthy ones, but they haven't been healthy in my experience.

I've also owned 3 spider bps so I do think i have a small sample size, but at least its something.

 

[rickmoss95]

In my experience, the vast difference between engima leos and spider ball pythons is that the spider ball pythons actually thrive. They eat, grow, reproduce, etc with normal frequency. Enigma leopard geckos (in my opinion) do not. I've had two enigmas, both rescues. One had to be euthanized because of frantic full body seizures, and the other, I'm contemplating euthanizing but she's never gotten quite to "that point." But she's over a year old and she's barely 12 grams. She can barely feed on her own, has to be hand fed, can't keep her balance at all, has a very bad head tilt, etc. While she is "friendly' and easy to handle, she's also not growing at anywhere near a normal rate.

It's a serious difference in quality of life to me and I will never own another enigma and I certainly will not propagate them. I can't imagine putting a new reptile owner through what I've been through with JUST those two enigmas. I've seen healthy ones, but they haven't been healthy in my experience.

I've also owned 3 spider bps so I do think i have a small sample size, but at least its something.

those enigmas should have been humanely put down, for one thing...

i bred ball pythons for five years, and i am on the other side of your point...i had about 35 spiders total, 17 of them were so bad off they were put down(humanely of course). they were just too goofy...had to force feed a few of them, others would roll onto thier backs, others did not eat well.

in enigma geckos, here is where i, personally stand: if an enigma is showing no signs of the usual problems, i will, and recently have, bred them. i have a red eyed enigma and a red stripe enigma, and they are both two of the most beautiful geckos i have ever seen(i have pics in my album on my profile if you want to see my stuff)...i also believe that with enough work and outcrossing, we can breed the unwanted vision and neurological issues out of these wonderful animals. if i produce animals(and im sure i will) with visible issues, they will be GIVEN away as pets only, or kept as pets only(or humanely eauthanised if needed). and any unaffected animals will be sold with the buyer fully aware of what the possibilities and genetics are. i will NEVER breed an enigma with any signs. my enigmas are also two of the coolest, most mellow leopards i have. they both come to the front of thier tubs when i go into the gecko room, and sit there and watch me. they seem to have alot of personallity for a little lizard. i honestly feel if one can live happily and healthy, why not let them live? the positive qualities that come with these animals are awesome. look at the jaguar carpet python, and the motley boa constrictors...they both had the same "types" of issues when the morphs were first produced, now you hardly, if ever see one with ANY issues...and they too, are some of the most beautiful morphs in thier species, in my opinoin. there are alot of GREAT, and honest breeders out there, who will be honest and represent thier animals as what they are. and there are also scumbag breeders who will not tell anything other than what the buyer wants to hear...but that type of "seller" usually does not last long. so i would say simply use caution when buying animals, and if you dont like enigmas, dont buy them.

 

[justindh1]

Enigmas are always buy at your own risk. A perfectly fine Enigma can show symptoms they day after or a year after you buy them. That's just part of the morph.

Also, even some if not most of the original breeders of the enigma state that they don't believe the issues can be bred out of the genetics. If every single one that showed the symptoms in the very beginning would of been culled then we may not even be discussing this topic right now.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I love my Enigmas... the few that I have chosen to keep. I also keep Carpet Pythons, and I know that the Jaguar morph has similar issues, as does a particular morph of Ball Python. It is an informed, educated choice. However, if there is an obvious quality of life issue, the most loving and unselfish act would be to humanely euthanize the animal. I have had enigmas that exhibited no symptoms of the 'syndrome' whatsoever that developed problems with the stress of breeding and/or shipping. There are no established criteria when a decision should be made to end the life of a suffering animal, but each case should be considered on a case-by-case situation.

Clearly, if the animal has no chance of having quality of life, and there is no chance of it recovering, the decision is clear.

 

[lillith]

those enigmas should have been humanely put down, for one thing...

i bred ball pythons for five years, and i am on the other side of your point...i had about 35 spiders total, 17 of them were so bad off they were put down(humanely of course). they were just too goofy...had to force feed a few of them, others would roll onto thier backs, others did not eat well.

in enigma geckos, here is where i, personally stand: if an enigma is showing no signs of the usual problems, i will, and recently have, bred them. i have a red eyed enigma and a red stripe enigma, and they are both two of the most beautiful geckos i have ever seen(i have pics in my album on my profile if you want to see my stuff)...i also believe that with enough work and outcrossing, we can breed the unwanted vision and neurological issues out of these wonderful animals. if i produce animals(and im sure i will) with visible issues, they will be GIVEN away as pets only, or kept as pets only(or humanely eauthanised if needed). and any unaffected animals will be sold with the buyer fully aware of what the possibilities and genetics are. i will NEVER breed an enigma with any signs. my enigmas are also two of the coolest, most mellow leopards i have. they both come to the front of thier tubs when i go into the gecko room, and sit there and watch me. they seem to have alot of personallity for a little lizard. i honestly feel if one can live happily and healthy, why not let them live? the positive qualities that come with these animals are awesome. look at the jaguar carpet python, and the motley boa constrictors...they both had the same "types" of issues when the morphs were first produced, now you hardly, if ever see one with ANY issues...and they too, are some of the most beautiful morphs in thier species, in my opinoin. there are alot of GREAT, and honest breeders out there, who will be honest and represent thier animals as what they are. and there are also scumbag breeders who will not tell anything other than what the buyer wants to hear...but that type of "seller" usually does not last long. so i would say simply use caution when buying animals, and if you dont like enigmas, dont buy them.

This was almost identical to my stance until recently. If you give it away as a pet, you have no idea what the person you give it to may do with it, and you've released it into the general public, which means: sometime, somewhere, someone may decide to breed it. I have gotten a lot more strict with my culling this year, and I have produced two enigmas with issues.

The first one was born missing a toe on her front foot, a shortened humerus bone, eyelid creases, and a neck dewlap. She has NO standard enigma symptoms however, and her color is off the charts. My exception in this case is that she will be a pet-only with my sister, who has agreed in writing to ship her back to me if she cannot keep her. I won't be sending her until she is close to 35-40g, and she's currently about 27g, growing steadily.

The other one...I really ought to put him down, he has the spinning and tilting pretty badly and doesn't feed himself except on the rare occasion. He is developing a mild case of MBD (being treated) and is not growing as fast as he should. I am giving him until the end of summer, since he is not underweight and because in the last few weeks his spinning has lessened. I do have misgivings and feel like I am probably only delaying the inevitable. I want to give him his chance, though.

The other two "littermates" to these are just about as perfect as an enigma can be. One's a holdback and one is for sale. So, this example illustrates the grab bag of outcomes. I'm not sure you can ever breed it out of them completely. I know if I feed mine a slightly fattier diet than usual, and give extra multivitamins, my outcomes have been a little better on an individual basis. But this is my anecdotal experience only.

 

[EnigmaEcho]

for me, i love enigmas- but to breed my girl...i just couldnt do it- breeding is stressful, and for sophie, she wouldnt handle it well because certain things cause even the slightest stress, she would be messed up for days or weeks depending.
that being said, her father was an excelent breeder and hand many children that came out beautiful and amiable. so, it comes down to the individual gecko. for my girl, shes just going to have to deal

 

[kizzer182]

The way I see this... no human wants a child with special needs or syndromes so why purposely breed geckos with the enigma 'syndrome' but as a human if it happens you take good care and do what's best for your child. Enigma geckos require a lot of time. My personal opinion is against breeding them.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

The way I see this... no human wants a child with special needs or syndromes so why purposely breed geckos with the enigma 'syndrome' but as a human if it happens you take good care and do what's best for your child. Enigma geckos require a lot of time. My personal opinion is against breeding them.

I know a lot of people who adopt children with special needs specifically. I love my special needs child just as much as I love my "normal" child. Maybe its just me and I am being sensitive but this post is offensive.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Maybe its just me and I am being sensitive but this post is offensive.

It's not just you. Pretty much anytime someone tries to draw a parallel between our pets and our children or ourselves, it will be offensive. It devalues people, it cannot be anything other than offensive.

 

[kizzer182]

Sorry I didn't mean it to be offensive,. Was giving a example mabi I should of used a dog with epilepsy, instead of a child I'm sorry, but being brought various animals I think its humanly ill and wrong to breed these.

A example why. Most people will go 'awww that's cute but really its a brain malfunctioN http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_...B&rdm=4nwsci0ue&reload=5#/watch?v=U8m_aGbmKvw once again sorry for my previous comment.

 

[Klogue1]

I don't know much about genetics in leopard geckos (or any living thing, lol... I failed Biology the first time >.<), and I really don't think I should bring in my two cents, since it's not much, but here it is:

To be honest, I find enigmas to be quite... not cute... No offence! I just don't like random spotting. I like symmetry.
BUT, I do absolutely love my friends gecko, who has enigma syndrome. He's an absolute doll, and healthy (besides the syndrome) too.
I personally believe that as long as the gecko isn't suffering in any way, it should be allowed to live. I understand this topic isn't about whether or not to cull an enigma syndrome leo, but I wasn't sure how to explain my opinion
I myself have tried many times to adopt enigma syndromes from people (you know, what I'm talking about, LZRDGRL, if you see this ^_^), because I find it worthwhile to go the extra mile to take care of something I love, or even just like. I try to provide my animals with the best care, and "problematic" geckos are not an exception.
I also find that enigma syndromes, like some people have said, can be VERY sweet. I know this is mainly due to their disorder (is that what you'd call it? Not sure), but still

Interesting topic you have going, probably going to read the rest of the posts now haha.

 

[Desdemona]

Depending on how reptile brains are put together... assuming its like most other brains, a fattier diet helping an enigma makes sense. Our brains need fat inbetween the synapsis in order to transfer the signal (this is probably overly simplified, and I'm going off memory). If the fat is thin or not healthy then your brain is not going to work as well. There are some who think that human epilepsy is cause by fat in the brain problems (not all, its a multi-symptom problem). I think I might add a few more wax worms to my enigma's diet to see if it makes a difference. Not a lot, but she only gets them once every two or three months at the moment.

I think I answered before and said no... but now I am reconsidering that. Like mentioned before my little enigma is a great pet and even though she does have a slight tilt to her, she can eat well enough on on her own (to include little roaches that run about) and is happy. I wouldnt' breed "her" but if I did end up with a enigma who showed no signs of the trait I would consider it. I just ordered another engima so if he turns out to be a good one then I will probably breed him. If not he will just be a pet. I think it would be worth seeing if we could breed the trait out because they do have such great personalities. For me its not even the morph's visual traits, though I will agree they can make some pretty geckos.

I do think enigma breeders should be careful and keep good track of their geckos!

 

[Dimidiata]

I think the conection he was trying to make was Would you rather a child have a mental illness or to live a normal life. We dont have to breed enigma and we do its like purposley breeding a mental illness in a lizard or any other animal. WE arnt breeding for the lizards sake we are breeding for our own selfish reason. There is no good reason to breed enigma knowing that they can be mentaly ill or have a twitch when you can breed 2 other geckos just as easy without problems. I persoanly dont see animal/human comparing to be devaluing. We are only as valuble as we make ourselfs to be and to put ourselfs higher then another being and saying we can do what we want with it because we simply can is IMO worthless.

 

[Desdemona]

I think it comes down to rather or not you turn it into a black and white issue or not. People who could produce a child with a genetic mutation and know that they could produce this child (family history shows they both have the ressisive or they have had a previous child with the disorder) will sometimes still have more kids putting future offspring at risk. They want more birth children vs adoption or whatever and they take the risk. Would you deny them the right to have these future child? There are no laws that do in The U.S. Some disorders are tied to gender so steps can be taken with artifical insimination to make it more likely they will have the "safe" gender, but not all fit in that category.

I don't think this issue is just black and white. If ALL enigmas were born with a severe disorder then I would agree that it should not be done no matter what they look like. However, not all are born with a severe disorder and there does seem to be the side effect that they are more sociable animals, better pets for those who want a "let me play with you" type of animal.

Also, as mentioned before (though more specifically in a older post I found a few days ago by searching) some snake morphs have had the same effects, but they have been able to breed out the worse cases so that they still have the morph and the snakes are happy/healthy. In time it could very well be the same for these guys.

We play god all of the time with breeding.. or mother nature if you prefer evolution.. and there is risk in all breeding. Not to mention health of the female, but even in the safe morphs you could always have a mutation that creates poor offspring. There is always risk and there is no guarantee that you are going to produce enigmas that are helpless animals who will live horrible lives. I can completely understand a quality of life argument, but its not a 100% guarantee of a bad quality of life.

It's all about responsiblity and only those who are willing to take on the resposibility should breed them. Other animals have touchy genes as well (dwarf hamsters have a gene that gives white splotches to color and breeding two hamsters with the same gene can cause babies with birth defects) and the same rules apply. It's about responsiblity. If breeders never took any risks then we would have a much smaller selection to choose from.

 

[Destiny]

This is such a tacky issue! My husband and I do breed enigmas, but we are careful about it. Here are a few things that I have noticed:
1. Non enigma animals from enigma parents can have "e.s."
2. Fatty diet or no, some are just derpy.
3. The blizzard gene, seems to wipe out e.s.??
4. Albino enigmas seem to have E.S. a little more severly or frequently.'

This is totatlly things I have observed in our program. I don't have answers for why for any of it, but it has made me wonder if visual enigma and E.S. are possbily not cause and effect of one another.

That maybe the are seperate things... I wish there was some way to study it.

My all time favorite gecko is an Tremper Sunglo Enig. I have posted about him before. He is a beautiful animal with this amazing personality and an extra special wisdom about him. He makes beautiful babies and the worst I have gotten so far are the spinnies... I wouldn't breed a head tilter or a flipper, not that I think it's wrong or horrid... As others have said, its just not something I would do.

They are certianly amazing little geckos.

 

[Desdemona]

Well I could make some tremper enigmas and snow. Just from your findings it sounds like "maybe" the e.s. gene just happened at the same time as the color gene and maybe they are not a must. However the e.s. could be dominate meaning that all offspring who get it will show. Which means there is the remote possibility that geckos could be enigma and not have the symptom gene.

There is a case in Russia where they breed grey foxes specifically for domestication. A airport wanted them to sniff out suspicious luggage. The foxes were breed for domestication ability and the project went really well. Even though they were only breeding for personality they also ended up with physical traits that were common in all of the domestic offspring (ie they were born acting like puppies not like wild foxes). Basically the domestic foxes looked more like domestic dogs, though no dog genes had been introduced. One group of wanted genes brought along another group that was not specifically breed for. If non-tremper showing geckos are showing symptoms then it does sound like it may be the same.

Do you think, if I found a solid way to calculate the data and account for most variables, some enigma breeders would give me information of their stock? If multiple people pooled their information and some worked specifically to eliminate the symptoms then maybe we could find more info on these guys.

Though to crack some codes some less than preferred breeding might have to take place... ie what kind of offspring do non-showing symptom parents have? If those geckos had infants with no enigma color and symptoms it could show a separate gene at play.

This problem really makes me want to brush up on my DNA. I have some info and some experience from previous animals but I am by no means an expert. Genetics has always fascinated me.

Oh, another question... does the seemingly more docile or less frightful trait ride with the color or does it ride with the symptoms? Assuming of course they are even separatable. Since e.s. is a brain symptom it could be that the less fearful personality is linked with the damaged brain and that color showing enigmas who are guaranteed to not show mental problems will act just like every other cautious gecko who is not hand trained.

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