Buying proven breeders that didn't fit in with there projects!

[eric]

I have wondered this for awhile. Have you ever purchased a proven gecko from a breeder and they said that it didn't fit in to there so call projects any more? First thing that comes to mind is what the hells wrong with the gecko or it's offspring! Isn't that a line of B.S? Now I am talking about breeders that pursue said gecko's from another breeder and breed it a couple times and then realize it wasn't producing either what they expected or some how it didn't fit in to there projects! B.S.! I find this to be horrible and border line unethical, if not disclosed. I seriously thought about putting this in the ethics threads, but I thought that I could express myself here with out being judged on an ethical issue and more of a rant! I'm not talking about breeders that are either getting out of the gecko breeding business or are helping someone out by selling a proven breeder or are cutting back geckos. Those breeders are fine, they care and are looking out for everyone else.Also hold-backs do not apply to this! The ones I'm talking about, knew the proven breeder wasn't anything special (to them) and produced mediocre offspring, those are the breeders that I am speaking of, and you know who you are! B.S.! But Breeders who do this beware the owner or new buyer of said proven gecko's just might be smarter than the breeders who are selling said proven geckos and figures out that the breeder didn't breed the right geckos together to produce outstanding offspring! I strongly feel this way, and Karma or whatever works for you will pay it forward to those breeders that sell to us in this manner not disclosing the truths of the proven gecko will get there do just in the end!

 

[mynewturtle]

Maybe there replaceing the gecko with a gecko with better genetics So in that case wouldn't it really not fit in there projects? Example you use raptor males for a lot of your project you finally produce a mack raptor, and you feel that he can replace you previous male.

 

[Gregg M]

Personally, I never buy "proven breeders"... Someone is just getting rid of an animal they do not want anymore... Why they do not want it anymore is not something I want to find out... It does send up a red flag in my opinion in certain cases... If it is a respected breeder in the community, I would not look into it that much and would be comfortable buying, but if it were some "nobody" that I have not heard much about, I would not even think about buying...
To me "proven breeder" is not a selling point... Any individual animal can be proven as a breeder if you keep them correctly...

 

[eyelids]

How about this situation: Breeder X produces a SS Albino male and wants to replace their MS Albino male with it... Breeder X loves all of their geckos, but has limited space and must sell ones that aren't going to be used in future projects...

Btw, I'm not Breeder X... I'm keeping my male MS Bell... :main_laugh:

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Well it depends, honestly being proven breeder or not doesn't effect if i'm going to buy a gecko from someone. I normally talk to the breeder or ask around about someone before i buy from them. There are people that i will not buy from at any point in the future but then again there are others that have truly amazing animals that i can't wait to get.

I look at the reputation of the breeder more then anything else. If it's a big question in someones mind they should just straight up ask them why they are selling off an animal. If there is nothing to hide then they should have no issues telling you the reason.

 

[thestack510]

To me just the phrase "proven breeder" is a misnomer, just for the fact that I haven't come accross an eligible Leo yet that wouldn't breed. Other people's experience may be different, I guess. I prefer to buy younger animals myself, just below breeding weight. There are some advantages to buying "proven breeders." As many of you know a more mature animal will produce more eggs than a younger Leo. On the other side of that coin, egg production tapers off as they pass their prime also. For the purposes of this thread I guess it boils down to the real reason that they are getting rid of the animal, and if they are willing to disclose that.

 

[MeiK]

there replaceing the gecko with a gecko with better genetics So in that case wouldn't it really not fit in there projects? Example you use raptor males for a lot of your project you finally produce a mack raptor, and you feel that he can replace you previous male.

X2. I have no problem w/it at all so long as the breeder is honorable. "Proven" to me is more about the ability to get it - not have to worry about it making weight - and being comfortable knowing the gecko knows what's going on.

It really can make stuff easier.

I.E. Pat @ Luxurious gave me a good deal on a RS Female (proven) - and I was happy because I know he takes good care of his animals. :main_thumbsup: She's just about ready to pass eggs now - and doing it this way took a whole lot of time out of the equation for me. (he also provided the excellent RS male too btw)

This is especially common in line breeding since the "holdback" will almost always end up looking nicer than at least one of the parents - so one of 'em usually ends up for sale at some point.

 

[whkrazyk]

i dont buy provven breeders either, and i would not sell a gecko as a proven breeder if it was say 6 years old, one of my friends bought a gecko as a proven breeder and it ended up only laying fertile for one season lol

 

[LeapinLizards]

There is always a reason that a person is parting with a proven breeder. I can see it both ways - they didn't like what the gecko produced, or they needed to clear some space...either way, why THAT gecko? As long as the breeder is HONEST as to why they are parting with the "proven breeder" then there is no problem. The statement "it just wouldn't fit into my projects" is a valid statement as long as the REAL reason is not that you believe it to be sub-par. It all comes down to FULL disclosure, and not just cop-out reasons so the sale continues.

 

[eric]

A few of you that have posted understand what I'm talking about,the wording "it just didn't fit into my projects" is what the rant is all about! I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but the almighty dollar takes over any disclosure talks in most cases. I would love to here situations from people that purchased a proven gecko that the breeder disclosed every thing about the gecko good and bad! And I feel with the economy getting worse these cases will start to multiply JMO!!!

 

[acpart]

I guess if I were in the position of buying a gecko and got told "It didn't fit into my projects" I would ask why and would decide based on that response whether I trusted the situation or not.

Aliza

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I am going out on a limb here with my comments. As a 'single entity' breeder (I am a 'one-woman' operation), I have to pick and choose my projects so I don't wind up having so many geckos that I cannot keep my head above water, and the animals wind up suffering for it in the long-run. I have 'scrapped' several projects as a result of not having the time, space, or energy to persue them. As a result, I've had to make the agonizing decision to sell some of my 'proven' breeders and breeding projects (the reverse-stripes and eclipse projects come to mind...).

The 'proven breeders' I sold were in their prime breeding ages and condition, and were exactly as described when I sold them. The problem was, they didn't fit into my breeding projects an longer.

I think one of the reasons they no longer 'fit' into my projects were for more than one reason. In many cases, it would have required a few years and LOTS of space and time that I was not 100% able to provide. Also, it could be that many others were working on the same project, and I saw no reason to make that level of committment to a project that would hold little value in a flloded market. It could also have been that there was no real future in the project or morph from my personal and/or professional perspective.

The biggest problem I have personally with selling 'proven breeders' is that I become emotionally attached to my geckos. It kills me to have to give up any one of them! I have to discipline myself, otherwise I would have an entire building of geckos I love that didn't 'fit' into my projects! I just don't see my geckos as inventory items, and selling a 'project' sounds so, well... impersonal and like these living creatures are nothing more than objects.

So, what are breeders supposed to do when they have 200 breeders and ony 180 of them 'fit into their projects'? Where do the other 20 of them go? Should we just keep them? Or, should we make them available to someone else who might have a 'project' they will work in to?

I dunno... I'm just playing the devil's advocate here and throwing in the 'flip side' of a very good question and subject.

 

[eric]

IF THE TRUTH IS ACTUALLY SPOKEN ABOUT A PROVEN GECKO THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM! But we all know not every one keeps good records. And maybe, just maybe if the truth was spoken more there just might be less leopard geckos flooding the market! JMO!

 

[acpart]

IF THE TRUTH IS ACTUALLY SPOKEN ABOUT A PROVEN GECKO THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM! But we all know not every one keeps good records. And maybe, just maybe if the truth was spoken more there just might be less leopard geckos flooding the market! JMO!

I think this gets at the root of the problem, which is more than just the "proven breeder" issue: an ethical seller discloses as much information as s/he has and if they haven't got much information, explains why. A discriminating seller passes on geckos where this level of information isn't available unless s/he decides to take a chance for some reason.

Aliza

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I agree. There is w-a-a-a-y too much unethical conduct going on these days! In many cases it is necessary to sell proven breeders, but if a buyer is considering purchasing one they should always ask "why" the gecko is being sold. They deserve an honest answer.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I agree. There is w-a-a-a-y too much unethical conduct going on these days! In many cases it is necessary to sell proven breeders, but if a buyer is considering purchasing one they should always ask "why" the gecko is being sold. They deserve an honest answer.

Took the words out of my mouth. This is where i go back to where i talked about getting to know the breeder before purchasing an animal. Typically i'm the type of person that if i don't really like you as a person i'm not going to buy animals from you.

That's just my personality though.

 

[eric]

I agree that certain circumstances acquiring a proven gecko is beneficial to a project, but with that said buyers beware, don't let the price influence your decision, ask question if they can't answer your questions run like hell! On another note, what's wrong with selling a proven gecko as a "pet only." This ultimately being a breeders decision to take this proven gecko out of the gene pool thus eliminating its offspring from ever being on the market. As breeders whether big or small I strongly believe that it's are responsibility to take care of the proven geckos that are no longer in are projects. Adopting them out putting strict regulations on whether they're allowed to breed. If we started doing this the amount of unwanted offspring would ultimately drop bring the market back up! JMO!!!

 

[LeapinLizards]

The problem with that Eric is that most people would want to make as much money from the sale as possible (PLEASE notice I did not say ALL people). Selling an animal solely for the purpose of a pet would drop the price drastically, to adoption costs pretty much - at least in my findings. It all comes down to the FULL truth being told...something numerous people will not do when the option to make a sale arises. I guess at that point you'd better hope you know the breeder well...either that or take that gecko and prove em all wrong :main_yes:

 

[eric]

or take that gecko and prove em all wrong :main_yes:

You bet your ass that's what I'm doing!:main_thumbsup:

 

[Okee Reps]

I've never liked the term "Proven Breeder", I wish there was another term to let buyers know that an animal has been previously bred. I've bought a number of "Proven Breeders" but I've done so with the understanding that nothing is guaranteed. I do agree that full disclosure is necessary when doing these transactions. I feel that no amount of money is worth my reputation and if a customer isn't happy I try to do everything possible to remedy the situation. I don't know what happened in this situation but maybe it could be resolved with whomever. My real issue with selling "Proven Breeders" is it doesn't mean squat! I've bought some that produced awesome offspring and some that gave nothing but infertiles but really what are you supposed to label an animal that you've already bred?

I think it's lose, lose for both buyers and sellers.