Confused about line-bred

[stinky]

Sorry for basic question.

Hypo is line-bred with some spots. Super Hypo a Hypo with no spots.

Q1 : We use "Super" to describe a co-dominent trait. Like super snow. Is this right? So, is Super Hypo 2 copies of Hypo??

Q2 : If Super Hypo x Super Hypo = Super Hypo, it will mean that the offsprings will NEVER have spots, right? But it is line-bred ... and there should be a chance of having spots, right??

Q3 : From another angle ... Super Hypo x normal = Hypo ... so, ALL offsprings will definately have spots. And if you cross offsprings with parent ... Super Hypo x Hypo = 50% chance Hypo + 50% chance Super Hypo.

Q4 : But Tangerine is ALSO line-bred. So, why is there no 1 copy or 2 copy for Tangerine??

So sorry, but I'm still new, and still very confused!!

Thanks.

 

[acpart]

The term "line bred" means breeding geckos together that exhibit the characteristic you want to include. This characteristic is not a simple dominant, recessive or co-dominant and is often considered to be "polygenetic" (many different genes contributing to produce it). Consequently, the best way to get it is to cross geckos with the characteristic in order to get an even better representation. In many cases, "line bred" implies inbreeding, since 2 geckos from the same blood line with the same characteristics have a greater chance, when bred, of producing others with that characteristic. However, in my understanding, unrelated geckos displaying the desired characteristics can also be "line bred" together.

THere is confusion with the word "super". It is being used 2 ways, in my opinion: in the case of the "super snow", it's used to denote 2 copies of the snow gene. In the case of the "super hypo tang" it's being used to denote an extreme condition, namely, having no spots.

To make things even more confusing, there are characteristics which may have both polygenetic origins (requiring line breeding) and a genetic component. Examples of these include stripes, which no one is entirely sure how they work and Ray Hines line of super hypo tangs. And if you're not confused enough, there was a thread on the forums a few years ago about someone who felt that there is a genetic component to SHT (I think he may have been working with Hines line geckos) and that he could breed 2 SHT together to get a "super super HT" (though I don't think he called it that.

So, you see, you're confused for a good reason. Others may see this differently and I'm sure you'll hear from them if they do.

Aliza

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

+1, Aliza answered pretty much everything. She is right about the "super" snow meaning it has 2 copies of the co dom morph. The whole thing with super hypos is one that doesnt always make sense but Aliza covered it good. Labeling Tangerines as 1c or 2c i dont think is necessary. This would only tell you how many tangs were used to make it (either one or both parents). But since its line bred you use the appearance of the one your looking at. Example...if you breed a smoking tang to a decent one you may get some that are bright and some that are not. The ones that are bright will have a higher chance of producing more bright tangs than the ones that are not. They have the same number of copies (1c or 2c) but poly-genetic breeding is based off of appearance. Thus no need for 1c or 2c.

 

[stinky]

OK, so in polygenetic breeding, 1c or 2c is not so important.

What threw me off was that under Hypo in Love Gecko Morph Calculator, there is a selection for 1c or 2c. Also, the results showed 1c or 2c. Additionally, it was listed under dominent/co-dominent trait.

Come to think of it, why is this so??

 

[Gregg M]

Anyone who is working with any "hypo" is working with Ray Hine descendants... The "hypo" in leos may work like a co-dominant gene most of the time in my opinion and the orange is more like a polygenic trait...

The fact is, genetics do not work as simple as it is made to be sometimes... Not everything is a co-dom, dominant, recessive, or polygenic... There can be lots of things going on genetically that us, as ordinary keepers and breeders, know nothing about... Most of these terms and morph names are given to leos and other reptiles by breeders for lack of a better term... The same morph names even have different meanings or examples between species...

For example, Hypo in leopard gecko means something different than hypo in most other reptile species... If you have a hypo hognose snake, you have a T+ albino that completely lacks black pigment... In leopard geckos it is an animal that lacks black spots in the body but still produces black pigmentation elsewhere on the body like the head and tail... In my opinion the term hypo is being used more correctly in other species than it is being used in leopard geckos...

 

[eyelids]

Especially considering Hypo is short for Hypomelanistic... You bring up a good point Gregg... I never thought about that in regards to other 'Hypos'...

 

[Gazz]

Offspring results in the UK says that hypo is Dominant and that Super(In hypo),Carrottail,Tangerine,Baldy are polygenic(Line bred) trait found in the hypo trait.Hypo is spots restrained with in the body bands has nothing to do with how many just where they are.Super hypo is no body spots and no head spots is a added plus.

Hypo.By Evergreenreptiles.
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/K03LG094.jpg
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/K07LG173.jpg
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/K07LG174.jpg
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/K07LG100.jpg

Super hypo.By Evergreenreptiles.
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/08LG299.jpg
http://www.evergreenreptiles.com/T05LG556.jpg

So.
Hypo is Dom.
Hypo tangerine is both Dom+Poly.
Super hypo is both Poly+Dom.
Super hypo tangerine is both Poly+Dom+Poly.
ETC'ETC.

Sorry for basic question.

Hypo is line-bred with some spots. Super Hypo a Hypo with no spots.

Q1 : We use "Super" to describe a co-dominent trait. Like super snow. Is this right? So, is Super Hypo 2 copies of Hypo??

Yes we use Super to describe Codom in it's (HOM) state.

But the "Super" in Hypo is a polygenic trait and can be either [1C] or [2C].

Q2 : If Super Hypo x Super Hypo = Super Hypo, it will mean that the offsprings will NEVER have spots, right? But it is line-bred ... and there should be a chance of having spots, right??.

There would be three possible outcomes for Super hypo X Super hypo.

[1C]Super hypo X [1C]Super hypo = .

Normal.
[1C]Hypo.
[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
From a strong line you'll likely get a higher amount of Super hypo.
=======
[2C]Super hypo X [1C]Super hypo = .

[1C]Hypo.
[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
From a strong line you'll likely get a higher amount of Super hypo.
=======
[2C]Super hypo X [2C]Super hypo = .

[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
From a strong line you'll likely get a higher amount of Super hypo.

Q3 : From another angle ... Super Hypo x normal = Hypo ... so, ALL offsprings will definately have spots. And if you cross offsprings with parent ... Super Hypo x Hypo = 50% chance Hypo + 50% chance Super Hypo.

To ways a Super hypo X Normal can go.

[1C]Super hypo X Normal = .

Normal.
[1C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
=======
Super hypo X Normal will give.

[2C]Super hypo X Normal = .

[1C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.

And no you don't get 50%Hypo and 50%Super hypo as Hypo NOT Codominant.

[1C]Hypo X [1C]Super hypo = .

Normal.
[1C]Hypo.
[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
=======
[2C]Hypo X [1C]Super Hypo = .

[1C]Hypo.
[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.
=======
[2C]Hypo X [2C]Super Hypo = .

[2C]Hypo.

A percent of hypo offspring will likely mature into Super hypo.

Q4 : But Tangerine is ALSO line-bred. So, why is there no 1 copy or 2 copy for Tangerine??

Tangerine is a Polygenic(Line bred) trait.[1C] and [2C] are use for trait that can be prodicted you can work out 100% the result.[1C] and [2C] is just another term most used in Dominant trait meaning (HET) and (HOM).

 

[stinky]

"Super hypo tangerine is both Poly+Dom+Poly."

Ohhhhh ... this is now much easier to understand!!! Thanks!!

And since Hypo is dominent, there is often little visual difference between 1c or 2c.

But this leads to another question ... Does Hypo only work with Tangerine?? Can we make a Hypo Snow?? I mean, since Hypo surpress melanin formation, a Hypo Snow should be a Snow with little or no spots, right??

 

[acpart]

Not a great picture, but here's my hypo snow. Father is a super snow which means that I don't know anything about the amount of spotting in his background. Mother is a redstripe cross who is pretty spotty but has produced hypos in the past. She was born in June and has not spotted up yet:

Aliza

 

[stinky]

Nice photo. The Hypo Snow still has tangerine color. So, does Hypo only work with Tangerine color? Would it be possible to make a Hypo Snow with no Tangerine color??

 

[acpart]

I think the real question is how easy it is to get really white Mack snows. I know some of the line bred ones are. There is tang in the parent's line, though actually she's much more washed out than most tangs. I have seen some really white hypo Mack snows, so I imagine it's possible.

Aliza

 

[Gazz]

"Super hypo tangerine is both Poly+Dom+Poly."

Ohhhhh ... this is now much easier to understand!!! Thanks!!

And since Hypo is dominent, there is often little visual difference between 1c or 2c.

But this leads to another question ... Does Hypo only work with Tangerine?? Can we make a Hypo Snow?? I mean, since Hypo surpress melanin formation, a Hypo Snow should be a Snow with little or no spots, right??

A [1C] and [2C] Hypo as a rule look no differant a Hypo is Spots retained with in the body bands.But coz of the Polygenic traits found in hypo they can look very differant.

Most leo's can inherit Tangerine.Even snow types can have a strong Tangerine influance like the Creamsicle leo a Super hypo snow tangerine.I think there's a couple patternless out there with a good Tangerine influance.But i've yet to see a blizzard with a good Tangerine influance as they seem to come out yellow.The trait that takes the spots is unretated to the trait for Tangerine so you can have both there are some Tangerine normal leo's that show this.

A really good Hypo snow with no Tangerine influance.
http://www.theurbangecko.com/images/pop_up/leopard/snows/chill.jpg

A nother Hypo snow with a soft yellow tone.
http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/wiki/images/7/79/Gem_snow_hypo.jpg

The Hypo in leo's is differant than the other Hypo traits see in other reptiles.Hypo in Corn snake for example changes black into a light tan color + reducies it.Hypo in leo's just take the spots from out side the body bands.Forcing a uniformed contraled pattern.And dose nothing to the color tone of black spots.So in truth Hypo in leo's is just a spot reduction.Note spot placment in the picture link above.

 

[stinky]

Thanks guys!! I think I understand the whole hypo thing now!!

You guys are just great!!