Confused now???

[Paco]

OK I have doing a lot research as of late. I thought I understood genetics pretty well. But when I look at this paragraph on Leo wiki it's throwing me off.

"Genetics
When speaking the genetics of the Enigma, they are very interesting. If you are dealing with the Homozygous form of the Enigma, breeding it to another morph will give 100% Enigmas. If it is the Heterozygous form, 50% of the hatchlings will be Enigmas, the other 50% will be Wild Types.

When it comes to breeding Enigma to Enigma, there are three different scenarios. The first is breeding Homozygous Enigma to Homozygous Enigma. The pairing will create 100% Enigmas which are Homozygous. The next is Heterozygous Enigma to Homozygous Enigma. This pairing will create 50% Enigmas that are Homozygous for Enigma and 50% Enigmas who are Heterozygous for Enigma. The last pairing is Heterozygous Enigma paired with a Heterozygous Enigma. This will have three different outcomes. The first is 25% Homozygous Enigmas, next is 50% Heterozygous Enigmas, last is 25% Normals. "

It's the first paragraph thats throwing me. If the Enigma trait is Dominate wouldn't breeding to any morph give 50% Enigma not 100%. Correct me if I am wrong. Hopefully it's wiki thats wrong. LOL

 

[Baysidegeckos]

There is no such thing as a Het Enigma.
What ever you breed and Enigma to, you only get 50% enigmas.

 

[supperl]

It´s correct(so far as I never heard someone had a proven homozygot Enigma).
Lets compare i to the Mack Snow trait. A homozygot Enigma would be the MSS and the heterzygot Enigma would be the Mack Snow. It´s just that easy only difference is that you can´t see a difference betwen het or homozygot at dominant traits but you can see at co-dom traits.

So a homozygot Enigma(same as the MSS) breed to a normal will brign you 100% heterzygot Engimas(same as a MSS would bring you 100% Mack Snow aka het MSS).
hope I ould help^^

 

[supperl]

There is no such thing as a Het Enigma.
What ever you breed and Enigma to, you only get 50% enigmas.

Well if I´m not wrong it is posible to create a 2 gene form of an dominat trait or am I wrong?
(I never heard of breeding Enigma*Enigma but I guess it is possible right?)

Plz correct me if I´m wrong I ever thought it was this way but I´m member of this great forum to learn(no better place to learn than this one!!!)

 

[Kotsay1414]

Well if I´m not wrong it is posible to create a 2 gene form of an dominat trait or am I wrong?
(I never heard of breeding Enigma*Enigma but I guess it is possible right?)

Plz correct me if I´m wrong I ever thought it was this way but I´m member of this great forum to learn(no better place to learn than this one!!!)

Thorsten,

You are correct about a dominate trait. When you have a dominate trait, the result is shown in both the homozygous version and the heterozygous version.

Speaking on the Enigmas, I have yet to hear of anyone breeding an Enigma to an Enigma, then taking the offspring and breeding it to a different morph. In theory, breeding an Enigma to and Enigma should create a Homozygous Enigma. With the Homozygous Enigma, you will be able to create 100% Enigmas.

 

[Paco]

Would be incomplete Dominant then.

Thorsten,

You are correct about a dominate trait. When you have a dominate trait, the result is shown in both the homozygous version and the heterozygous version.

Speaking on the Enigmas, I have yet to hear of anyone breeding an Enigma to an Enigma, then taking the offspring and breeding it to a different morph. In theory, breeding an Enigma to and Enigma should create a Homozygous Enigma. With the Homozygous Enigma, you will be able to create 100% Enigmas.

In dominate traits the het and homo are the same thing, there is no difference. As you explain, If this were the case then the Enigma trait would be an incomplete dominat trait with the super still to be proved out. I thought they proved it out as dominate not Co-dom. Somone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Kotsay1414]

In dominate traits the het and homo are the same thing, there is no difference. As you explain, If this were the case then the Enigma trait would be an incomplete dominat trait with the super still to be proved out. I thought they proved it out as dominate not Co-dom. Somone please correct me if I am wrong.

There has been no Super Form or Homozygous form that is different than the Heterozygous form in the Enigmas. That is why it is thought to be Dominate rather than Incomplete Dominate or Co Dominate.

 

[Paco]

You can't assume then

There has been no Super Form or Homozygous form that is different than the Heterozygous form in the Enigmas. That is why it is thought to be Dominate rather than Incomplete Dominate or Co Dominate.

Then you can't assume what you are stating then. You are saying it's a co-dom trait. I am sure they would know buy now wether or not a super exists. Otherwise they would say it's an incomplete dominate trait with the super to be proved out. I am sure Kelli did her homework before stating and releasing any Genetic traits the Enigma might posses. If it is Incomplete Dominate then it should be listed as so, not as Dominate.

 

[Kotsay1414]

Then you can't assume what you are stating then. You are saying it's a co-dom trait. I am sure they would know buy now wether or not a super exists. Otherwise they would say it's an incomplete dominate trait with the super to be proved out. I am sure Kelli did her homework before stating and releasing any Genetic traits the Enigma might posses. If it is Incomplete Dominate then it should be listed as so, not as Dominate.

I am not stating it is a Co-Dominate trait. It is a dominate trait. There is no Super form to date. When a trait is Dominate, it is the same in both the Homozygous and Heterozygous form.

In both Incomplete Dominate and Co Dominate, the homozygous form is different in appearance than the heterozygous form.

 

[Nigel4less]

http://www.ballpython.ca/what_get/dominant.html ...This[ seems to be the same situation with the Enigmas or else everyone would be producing 100% Enigmas with every pairing...

 

[Paco]

Thats correct

I am not stating it is a Co-Dominate trait. It is a dominate trait. There is no Super form to date. When a trait is Dominate, it is the same in both the Homozygous and Heterozygous form.

In both Incomplete Dominate and Co Dominate, the homozygous form is different in appearance than the heterozygous form.

The way you have it written on wiki is wrong then. When a trait is Dominate there is no "het" the homozygous is the het, ther is no difference. You only have hets in recessive and Co-dom traits and in Co-dom traits the het is a Visual.

 

[Paco]

Exatly!!!

http://www.ballpython.ca/what_get/dominant.html ...This[ seems to be the same situation with the Enigmas or else everyone would be producing 100% Enigmas with every pairing...

I have been working Balls for as long as Leos and I know the genetics pretty well and what combo's are possible from all( I mean all) the genetic pairings. Leos genetics are no different. My problem is that when I read stuff on a site that's supposed to be infromative and that particular info wehter wrong or right, makes me second guess myself when I know I am correct, makes my brain hurt LOL.

 

[Paco]

Got that backwards

The way you have it written on wiki is wrong then. When a trait is Dominate there is no "het" the homozygous is the het, ther is no difference. You only have hets in recessive and Co-dom traits and in Co-dom traits the het is a Visual.

What I meant to say is with a Dominate trait the Homozygous is the "Het". I worded the statment wrong.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Paco, since you are knowledgeable about Ball Python genetics, Nigel's link should have explained it perfectly.

from dictionary.com:

ho·mo·zy·gous:
1. having identical pairs of genes for any given pair of hereditary characteristics.
2. of or pertaining to a homozygote.

het·er·o·zy·gous:
1. having dissimilar pairs of genes for any hereditary characteristic.
2. of or pertaining to a heterozygote.


Heterozygous only means that the gecko carries 1 gene for the trait. In a Dominant morph the "het" and "homo" geckos appear the same. So far it hasn't been proven that a homozygous Enigma will produce 100% Enigmas though...at least as far as I know.

 

[Paco]

Paco, since you are knowledgeable about Ball Python genetics, Nigel's link should have explained it perfectly.

from dictionary.com:

ho·mo·zy·gous:
1. having identical pairs of genes for any given pair of hereditary characteristics.
2. of or pertaining to a homozygote.

het·er·o·zy·gous:
1. having dissimilar pairs of genes for any hereditary characteristic.
2. of or pertaining to a heterozygote.


Heterozygous only means that the gecko carries 1 gene for the trait. In a Dominant morph the "het" and "homo" geckos appear the same. So far it hasn't been proven that a homozygous Enigma will produce 100% Enigmas though...at least as far as I know.

Thats the thing there is no "het" when dealing with dominate traits. So then what you are saying is Enigmas are an incomplete dominate. Not a dominate trait as it is listed. If they have not been proven out they should not be listed as a Domiate trait. Why list a trait as dominate if it has not been proven out? Thats why they have the title incomplete dominate? Still needs to be proven out. If you can explain why Kelli would just be guessing that the trait is dominate I would like to know. You really don't think she ever tried breeding Enigma x Enigma, if i were working on a project in it's infancy that would be the first pairing I would do.

 

[nwheat]

Genes - whether they are recessive, co-dominant, incompletely dominant, or dominant (not dominate - that is a verb) have two alleles (one coming from each parent).

So, a dominant trait will still have two alleles: EE (homozygous dominant) Ee (heterozygous - simply means that the two alleles are different) or ee (homozygous recessive).

With a dominant trait, EE and Ee will look the same, as you said. However, the offspring produced by EE vs Ee will vary.

An Enigima with an EE genotype bred to a normal (ee) can only donate an E allele, so all offspring will be Ee. An Enigma with an Ee genotype bred to a normal (ee) can donate either an E or an e. So offspring will be half enigma (Ee) and half normal (ee).

I hope this helps. I have a general genetics page on my site that may also help.

 

[Mel&Keith]

You really don't think she ever tried breeding Enigma x Enigma, if i were working on a project in it's infancy that would be the first pairing I would do.

Actually, she (and others I'm sure) have bred Enigmas together and it doesn't appear as though there is a "Super" form so they wouldn't be an incomplete dominant.

I'll try to explain it simply:
Enigma A carries only 1 allele for Enigma, it looks like/is an Enigma.
Enigma B carries 2 alleles for Enigma, it looks identical to the first Enigma.
Enigma A is a heterozygous Enigma.
Enigma B is a homozygous Enigma.

 

[Paco]

Sorry for the spelling everyone. LOL. My brain has been scrambled as of late. I am no genetics expert and I will be the first to admit it. But I have a very good basic knowledge of how it works. Unless you have you degree in genetics it's all pretty basic. A few guy's that Claim to have genetics degree's over at another forum in the Boas and Balls get pissed when the avarage person tries to talk genetics. It's kinda funny but I can see where they are coming from. The average person has no Idea how complicated genetics are. They laugh at us when we talk about alleles and doing squares. That stuff makes my head hurt. Just got off the phone with a very reputible breeder. In theroy it is possible to cretate Homozygous Enigma. But until someone does and proves it out, we will have to assume the the Enigma trait is Dominant untill other wise proven.

 

[Kotsay1414]

Thats the thing there is no "het" when dealing with dominate traits. So then what you are saying is Enigmas are an incomplete dominate. Not a dominate trait as it is listed.

That is where you are wrong. If you breed an Enigma that has two copies of the Enigma trait (homozygous for Enigma) to a Normal (has 0 copies of the Enigma trait), in theory you should create 100% Enigmas because you only need 1 copy of the trait to create an Enigma (Making it Heterozygous for Enigma).

As Mel posted earlier, if it is Heterozygous, it only has one copy. In my opinion, most of the people are dealing with Heterozygous Enigmas, that is why they are not hatching 100% Enigmas.

If someone breeds Enigma to Enigma, then takes the hatchlings and breeds it to a Normal, they should have at least one pairing that creates 100% Enigmas.

 

[Paco]

I retracted that

That is where you are wrong. If you breed an Enigma that has two copies of the Enigma trait (homozygous for Enigma) to a Normal (has 0 copies of the Enigma trait), in theory you should create 100% Enigmas because you only need 1 copy of the trait to create an Enigma (Making it Heterozygous for Enigma).

As Mel posted earlier, if it is Heterozygous, it only has one copy. In my opinion, most of the people are dealing with Heterozygous Enigmas, that is why they are not hatching 100% Enigmas.

If someone breeds Enigma to Enigma, then takes the hatchlings and breeds it to a Normal, they should have at least one pairing that creates 100% Enigmas.

You did not read my last post. I agree with that 100%. But as I said until someone does produce an Enigma and proves it out it is all theory. We do not know if this Homozygous Enigma can happen at this point. There could be some random gene that would prevent this. Until it does you can not have 100% hets from breeding enigmas as it written on Leo wiki. My question is then If Kelli and others did do cross breedings Enigma x Enigma. Then by your logic,there should several Homozygous Enigma's out allready. How come no has has come across one yet??? Why have we not heard of one yet??? Someone just trying to keep it a secret so other breeders don't capitalize on it???