Confused now???

[supperl]

Well the homozygousEnigma looks like the het version..... SO even if their is an homozygous Enigma you could only know by testbreeding it and getting 100% Enigma(but that can happen with a het Enigma, too as it is all luck).

In theroy it is possible to cretate Homozygous Enigma. But until someone does and proves it out, we will have to assume the the Enigma trait is Dominant untill other wise proven.

For my understanding, it is possible that Enigma is Dominant trait AND has homozygous Version. It´s like a Co-DOm trait only that you won´t see a difference between the het and the homozygous version.
I mean the Ballpyhon link explained it perfectly. SO if we have a Dominant trait like that Spider it is possible to have het and homozygouts ENigmas(as dominant trait) that just have no difference in disapearance.

But so far as yoyu said I haven´t heard of homozygous Engimas as it will be not easy to proof out.

 

[Gazz]

For this type of thred which will be asked again and again.With each new person that get into the enigma morph the term 'HET' enigma should be avoided infact scraped.As there is no 'HET'enigma we associate the term 'HET 'with the simple recessive way.Enigma is just that or is not.IMO a better term would be somthing like 'Double factor-(DF)'ETC.So enigma X normal = 50%enigma &50%normal.And DF-enigma x normal = 100%engma.Is far more esayer to explain that way.Anyway to my knowledge it's not even been proven yet that there is such a thing as a DF enigma.There may not be such a thing as a DF-enigma ??.Is there anyone breeding there enigma from a a enigma x enigma breeding to a NON enigma this season ??.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Gazz, I know we've been explaining it over and over but I still think it's best for people to actually learn the correct genetics. Even if we use other terms the questions will still be asked and answered, just using incorrect terminology. How many Raptor questions are there every week? And that morph has been around a heck of a lot longer!

 

[Gazz]

When it comes to breeding Enigma to Enigma, there are three different scenarios. The first is breeding Homozygous Enigma to Homozygous Enigma. The pairing will create 100% Enigmas which are Homozygous.

There the first spanner in the works.Kelli H has said that she has bred enigma X enigma and still got 50%enigma & 50%normal same result as breeding a enigma to a normal.

 

[Paco]

Thank You Very Much

There the first spanner in the works.Kelli H has said that she has bred enigma X enigma and still got 50%enigma & 50%normal same result as breeding a enigma to a normal.

Finally some facts come to life. Now if this information is correct( only Kelli would know for sure)??? Than it has been proven that there is no Homozygous form??? That would be what I gather from the information just given. If this is not correct please let me know. Because for the Homozygous form to appear you would have to get all Enigma from Enigma x Enigma.

 

[Paco]

I have a question??

Gazz, I know we've been explaining it over and over but I still think it's best for people to actually learn the correct genetics. Even if we use other terms the questions will still be asked and answered, just using incorrect terminology. How many Raptor questions are there every week? And that morph has been around a heck of a lot longer!

Not to sound rude, so please don't take it this way. But What genetic experience do you have? As I said I am no genetics expert so thats on the table. There just seems to be a lot of people who think they are on the reptile forums( in general, this is not the only forum I participate in), because they have read a few books. That does not qualify somone to be able to try to explain genetics. I just want to make sure people are quailfied to be able to support their theories and back them up with proven facts not just hearsay or "this is how I understand it". As you stated there is a lot of terminology that is missused and missunderstood in the reptile industry as a whole.

 

[Paco]

Spider still not proven

Well the homozygousEnigma looks like the het version..... SO even if their is an homozygous Enigma you could only know by testbreeding it and getting 100% Enigma(but that can happen with a het Enigma, too as it is all luck).



For my understanding, it is possible that Enigma is Dominant trait AND has homozygous Version. It´s like a Co-DOm trait only that you won´t see a difference between the het and the homozygous version.
I mean the Ballpyhon link explained it perfectly. SO if we have a Dominant trait like that Spider it is possible to have het and homozygouts ENigmas(as dominant trait) that just have no difference in disapearance.

But so far as yoyu said I haven´t heard of homozygous Engimas as it will be not easy to proof out.

The problem with using the Spider as an example is that the Morph is 8-10 years down the road allready. No one has produced or claimed to produce a Homozygous Spider. Why hide the genetics? There are way to many breeders who have worked with this morph to not have proved it out by now. By the way the page that the link goes to is Information from about 5 or more years ago when spiders were around $7-12k now they are $400. I know, it's all a conspiracy by the big breeders to hide this genetic information from us little guys so we can not create morphs just as quickly as they can. LOL

 

[Gazz]

Finally some facts come to life. Now if this information is correct( only Kelli would know for sure)??? Than it has been proven that there is no Homozygous form??? That would be what I gather from the information just given. If this is not correct please let me know. Because for the Homozygous form to appear you would have to get all Enigma from Enigma x Enigma.

Here is a link to the thred where kelli H made the quote.It's post number #19.
http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=16263&page=2&highlight=enigma

 

[nwheat]

Not to sound rude, so please don't take it this way. But What genetic experience do you have? As I said I am no genetics expert so thats on the table. There just seems to be a lot of people who think they are on the reptile forums( in general, this is not the only forum I participate in), because they have read a few books. That does not qualify somone to be able to try to explain genetics. I just want to make sure people are quailfied to be able to support their theories and back them up with proven facts not just hearsay or "this is how I understand it". As you stated there is a lot of terminology that is missused and missunderstood in the reptile industry as a whole.

Everything Mel has said has been absolutely correct. She may not be a biology instructor - but I am.

 

[KelliH]

As far as we know there is no "super" Enigma. However, considering this is only y third breeding season with them (and my first season I produced less than 5 Enigmas) it is possible that there is a "super" form but it would look so much like the "co dom" form that the only way to prove it would be to breed to a few non Enigmas and produce 100% Enigma offspring.

 

[KelliH]

BTW, has there been a "Super Spider" produced yet, a Spider that when bred to a normal produces 100% Spider offspring? I don't keep up with ball pythons any longer, so I have no idea.

 

[Paco]

Thank you Kelli.

As far as we know there is no "super" Enigma. However, considering this is only y third breeding season with them (and my first season I produced less than 5 Enigmas) it is possible that there is a "super" form but it would look so much like the "co dom" form that the only way to prove it would be to breed to a few non Enigmas and produce 100% Enigma offspring.

So the debate will be "on" until it's proven out???

 

[Paco]

TRying to find out

BTW, has there been a "Super Spider" produced yet, a Spider that when bred to a normal produces 100% Spider offspring? I don't keep up with ball pythons any longer, so I have no idea.

I am currently trying to find out. Hopefully I will have more info to come.

 

[Paco]

Here is an interesting read I got from a response about the Homozygous Spider. Hopefully some answers will follow.

I don't think that enough matings have been done to prove anything, yet.

"Here is a parallel situation:

A retired pro geneticist that I know raises zebra finches. He is trying to determine whether the crested mutant gene, which is some sort of dominant mutant in zebra finches, is lethal when homozygous. For what it's worth, there is a crested mutant gene in ducks and another in canaries. Both of those mutants are lethal when homozygous. Here is how my friend is doing it.

1. Mate crested x crested. The crested offspring have a 33% probability of being homozygous. He keeps these for breeding tests.

2. Test the possible homozygous crested finches by mating them to normals (non-crested). Seven crested babies and zero noncrested babies produces a 99% probability that the crested parent is homozygous. If a mating produces one or more non-crested babies, then the crested parent must be heterozygous (with a crested mutant gene paired with a normal gene). Failed matings are replaced with new test matings.

3. Continue the test matings until either there are some >99% probability homozygous crested finches or there is a less than 1% probability that he missed getting a homozygous crested finch simply by the luck of the draw. So far, there have been nine test matings. In each, the possible homozygous crested parent was not homozygous. My friend has been at this for several years and is shooting for 20 failed test matings before deciding the crested mutant gene is lethal when homozygous.

I would use the same protocol for testing whether or not the spider mutant gene is lethal when homozygous. This is a very time consuming procedure, so it's fairly obvious why nobody has done it yet.

Paul Hollander"

This help shed a little light on the Genetics end and from these findings From Kellis inital test breedings it would apper that a lethal gene might just be involved. The same gene is thought to be found in Spiders.

 

[KelliH]

So the debate will be "on" until it's proven out??

What debate?

As for Spider Ball Pythons...
Spiders have been around for nearly 10 years, someone by now should know if there is a "super" Spider. From what I gathered from reading this current information from NERD's site, the Spider Ball is still considered a "dominant" trait and there is NO Super form.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerd/index.php/ball-pythons/spider.html

This help shed a little light on the Genetics end and from these findings From Kellis inital test breedings it would apper that a lethal gene might just be involved.

Not to be rude, but that doesn't shed any light on anything related to the Enigmas IMO. I don't see any evidence of lethal gene involvement. Why exactly do you think a lethal gene is involved? Thanks

 

[Paco]

WOorded that wrong.

What debate?

As for Spider Ball Pythons...
Spiders have been around for nearly 10 years, someone by now should know if there is a "super" Spider. From what I gathered from reading this current information from NERD's site, the Spider Ball is still considered a "dominant" trait and there is NO Super form.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerd/index.php/ball-pythons/spider.html



Not to be rude, but that doesn't shed any light on anything related to the Enigmas IMO. I don't see any evidence of lethal gene involvement. Why exactly do you think a lethal gene is involved? Thanks

I know you don't have a debate, but obviously there are a lot of people that do. Just look at all the replies on this thread. If you read what everyone has written you would think that the Homozygous from of the Enigma exists. Go to the wiki site thats the way it written far a genetics. Breed Enigma to normal and get 100% het Enigma. Thats where my debate is.

Sorry Kelli I wrote that wrong. It should have been presented as question.

Could there be a lethal gene involed that would prevent the Homozygous Dominant form from happening?

It may not shed light on the Enigmas exactly but it does let people know how the process works and what your outcomes should be to determine if a particular trait will be Homozygous Dominant or not. If that does not relate to the thread I don't know what does. It the same testing method Someone would use for any Animal/reptile you are trying to prove out a Homozygous Dominant trait.

 

[supperl]

What is the exact discription for a dominant mutation gen?
If basically a Dominant gen doesn´t have somthing like a homozygous form (2 genes) which makes 100% offsprings so I would say the enigma shouldn´t be named Dominant. I mean Enigmas aren´t old and I guess most ppl have breed Enigma to non Enigma and for the few who breed Enigma to Enigma, well if what is writtin on wiki(and my thoughts) is right, than you only have a 25% chance for a homozygous Enigma and it could be bad luck that no one had one or maybe their are still homozygous but no one knows of them.
I mean okay from that szenario you would have 75% Enigmas and 25% nonenigmas from such a breeding. Could also be bad luck that most ppl have hatched only around 50%. I mean I paired MSB*B and got 6/3 thats also not 50/50.

Well but I guess that´s all not totaly breed out than. I thought it was the way I explained it above but as said I´m here to learn and ifI´m wrong than I learn.

 

[Paco]

Here is a bit more info on how a Leathal mutant gene can effect offspring.

"A gene pair is homozygous when both genes are the same. A homozygous spider ball python would have a gene pair containing two spider mutant genes. The spider ball pythons that we see are not homozygous -- they have a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene.

If the spider mutant gene is lethal when homozygous, here is the way things would work. When a spider gene is paired with a normal gene, the spider mutant gene does something that is enough to change the snake's appearance while the normal gene does the normal thing enough to keep the snake reasonably healthy. Two copies of the spider gene could make such a big change from normal working that the effect kills the snake.

Different lethal mutant genes affect different organs. Different lethal mutant genes also kill the owner at different times. Death might occur any time between fertilization of the egg and sexual maturity. The final effect doesn't even have to be death; sterility would be adequate.

Nobody knows exactly what effects the spider mutant gene has beyond the effect on the pattern. "

Paul Hollander

 

[Paco]

Not yet.

BTW, has there been a "Super Spider" produced yet, a Spider that when bred to a normal produces 100% Spider offspring? I don't keep up with ball pythons any longer, so I have no idea.

I have contacted a few very Big Ball breeders and so far no Homozygous Spider. Still waiting to hear back from the Originator of the Spider.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Yes the information is correct. IF you had a homozygous Enigma, all of its offspring should be Enigmas. The problem with that is, they need to be test bred. There have not been many people that have bred E X E at this time, so how could they have produced a homozygous one, to prove it out? They`de still have to raise it, then breed it, to know.

Otherwise Enigma X Enigma (heterozygous) would give you around 75% chance at hatching Enigmas, and a 25% chance that one will be homozygous. Kelli`s outcome has certainly not disproven anything. Those "odds" are just the probability-factor, it really does not mean too much, you could potentially hatch 100% Enigmas, or 0% Enigmas with only one HET Enigma. Of course this is not very likely, but not impossible either.

Dominant morphs do indeed have a "heterozygous" form, that word does NOT only pertain to recessive genetics. That is one of the reptile world`s misconceptions.