Curly Tail Leo

[Dog Shrink]

Ok if alleles are dominant and recessive gene traits, how can you reduce the amount of alleles that are present in an animal with selective breeding? After all if all an allele is is a DNA sequence you really can't reduce the amount of DNA in an animal now can you? It's going to have the same amount of alleles whether the lines are more mixed or more pure, you're just reducing your recessivs by selective breeding and making the outcome more predictable.

Also wikipedia isn't the best source of info, and shouldn't be taken as fact since the info on it is user submitted. I would question their reliability as a factual source every time.

 

[roger]

IMO this is no different than a kinked tail.Please dont breed these animals

 

[Jordan]

i think the reason it is okay to breed albinism and not this is because an albino, has been sort of tested and proven to be able to live a normal life in captivity. (not in the wild though) An Albino's main problem is sensitivity to light, but we can take care of that, we can stop them from being put under bright lights, and we can protect them from that.

but with curly tails, we dont know their main issues, but im guessing it would be a spinal deformity or/and the inability to store as much fat reserves in the tail.
also, can they still give of signals, like defensive tail wagging?
Also tbh, it kinda looks arkward and sore for the gecko.
My point is these are things that we cant help , we cant straighten out his tail when he needs to store more fat, we cant waggle his tail for him.

another point im trying to make is, something like the blizzard morph, yes in the wild the gecko would have problems, would be easily seen and couldnt hide very well, but in captvity he hasnt got that problem, he's not being hunted at all.
But with a curly tail gecko, in the wild he'd have the problem, and bringing him into captivity doesnt erase the problem like the previous example.
And so if you cant erase the problem then dont create it.

 

[PDoogle]

Ok if alleles are dominant and recessive gene traits, how can you reduce the amount of alleles that are present in an animal with selective breeding? After all if all an allele is is a DNA sequence you really can't reduce the amount of DNA in an animal now can you? It's going to have the same amount of alleles whether the lines are more mixed or more pure, you're just reducing your recessivs by selective breeding and making the outcome more predictable.

Also wikipedia isn't the best source of info, and shouldn't be taken as fact since the info on it is user submitted. I would question their reliability as a factual source every time.

I'll give it to you that you might know more about dogs, but you might want to read up on genetics. Your not reducing the amount of DNA, you are reducing the overall amount of alleles in a population. I'm not going to debate this one here cause it is just a proven fact.

Also, wiki is a fantastic source of info if you just check your facts. We use wiki at the post graduate level all the time! You just need to make sure the information is correct.

 

[PDoogle]

i think the reason it is okay to breed albinism and not this is because an albino, has been sort of tested and proven to be able to live a normal life in captivity. (not in the wild though) An Albino's main problem is sensitivity to light, but we can take care of that, we can stop them from being put under bright lights, and we can protect them from that.

but with curly tails, we dont know their main issues, but im guessing it would be a spinal deformity or/and the inability to store as much fat reserves in the tail.
also, can they still give of signals, like defensive tail wagging?
Also tbh, it kinda looks arkward and sore for the gecko.
My point is these are things that we cant help , we cant straighten out his tail when he needs to store more fat, we cant waggle his tail for him.

another point im trying to make is, something like the blizzard morph, yes in the wild the gecko would have problems, would be easily seen and couldnt hide very well, but in captvity he hasnt got that problem, he's not being hunted at all.
But with a curly tail gecko, in the wild he'd have the problem, and bringing him into captivity doesnt erase the problem like the previous example.
And so if you cant erase the problem then dont create it.

Let me start by saying, I'm not breeding this animal, have never intended to breed this animal, nor have I ever bred a leo, nor do I want to.

That out of the way....

We know the Albino and other morphs capacity to live a normal life in captivity because we tested it. We bred the animals, we observed, and then we attempted to breed unfavorable traits out...e.g. enigmas.

We have no information about the curly tails at present, who is to say the won't lead a normal life? For that matter, the way evolution occurs is in part through mutations, who is to say these animals wouldn't have a better life? We don't have the data.

In the Silver Fox Experiments, Foxes were selectively bred to be less aggressive, and in several generations they had floppy ears and curly tails, it never effected their overall health at all.

I seriously doubt the minute amount of fat it couldn't store would make any difference whatsoever in it's life in captivity. nor do I think the difference in its tail waggle would play any part, again, we just don't know. As looking awkward and sore for the gecko, that's a classic case of anthropomorphism. To me, having my skin peel off my whole body including eyes and then eating it seems pretty damn uncomfortable too....that doesn't mean the gecko feels that way.

So my point is this. Why is okay to breed color morphs with know problems, then try to breed the problems out, but not okay to breed curly tails, where we don't have the data about any abnormal health effects?

Again, I'm not going to breed this animal, I'm just wondering how much of the rhetoric is based on people's actual fact and true opinion, and how much is based on "well everyone says not too, so it must be bad."

 

[Dog Shrink]

I'll give it to you that you might know more about dogs, but you might want to read up on genetics. Your not reducing the amount of DNA, you are reducing the overall amount of alleles in a population.

That is why it was a question and not a comment. Would you have some references to this genetic information you mention, I'd like to read some more about it. Anytime I put reducnig Alleles in google search all I get is a lot of info on some computer stuff and cloning.

 

[PDoogle]

That is why it was a question and not a comment. Would you have some references to this genetic information you mention, I'd like to read some mroe about it. Anytime I put reducnig Alleles in google search all I get is a lot of info on some computer stuff and cloning.

You can start on wikipedia Try Genetic Drift, Allele Frequencies, Hardy-Weindberg principle, Population genetics...

Even if you google any of those you will get a ton of results.

Sorry if it sounded rude!

 

[Dog Shrink]

Didn't sound rude... thanks for the leads.

 

[UnicornSpirit]

You can start on wikipedia Try Genetic Drift, Allele Frequencies, Hardy-Weindberg principle, Population genetics...

Even if you google any of those you will get a ton of results.

Sorry if it sounded rude!

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia. I know in school if we ever used wikipedia as a source we would automatically flunk the paper. ".edu" websites or books are probably the best sources for information like this. Just sayin'. lol.

 

[JordanAng420]

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia. I know in school if we ever used wikipedia as a source we would automatically flunk the paper. ".edu" websites or books are probably the best sources for information like this. Just sayin'. lol.

When I got my licence as a vet tech, it was the same way. If wiki was cited, you lost 50% off your total mark, essentially failing said paper or project. Reptile genetics and mammalian genetics are two totally different things, and one has been tested and researched WAY more than the other one. So the two should not be compared, IMO.

 

[Jordan]

We know the Albino and other morphs capacity to live a normal life in captivity because we tested it. We bred the animals, we observed, and then we attempted to breed unfavorable traits out...e.g. enigmas.

We have no information about the curly tails at present, who is to say the won't lead a normal life? For that matter, the way evolution occurs is in part through mutations, who is to say these animals wouldn't have a better life? We don't have the data.

I seriously doubt the minute amount of fat it couldn't store would make any difference whatsoever in it's life in captivity. nor do I think the difference in its tail waggle would play any part, again, we just don't know. As looking awkward and sore for the gecko, that's a classic case of anthropomorphism. To me, having my skin peel off my whole body including eyes and then eating it seems pretty damn uncomfortable too....that doesn't mean the gecko feels that way.

So my point is this. Why is okay to breed color morphs with know problems, then try to breed the problems out, but not okay to breed curly tails, where we don't have the data about any abnormal health effects?

"

I understand your point, i fact i very nearly agree with it.

But the answer is where you said 'We have no information about the curly tails at present' ... therefore we dont know if it is in pain or not. and id rather not make more animals that could 'possibly' be suffering, but could possibly be fine.
So, someone has to prove that there are no detromental effects to the animals well being should be bred.
And so most breeders would cull, because a defect on the outside likely means a defect on the inside, which is better than letting it live possibly a harsh life.
If a breeder CANT prove that it is fine and not causing any issues then it shouldnt be bred.

I admit the problems i stated (less fat storing, and tail signals) were maybe minute problems but i believe mentioned earlier were spinal deformities and twisted organs.
And it would be wrong to keep an animal alive suffering from that.

 

[PDoogle]

When I got my licence as a vet tech, it was the same way. If wiki was cited, you lost 50% off your total mark, essentially failing said paper or project. Reptile genetics and mammalian genetics are two totally different things, and one has been tested and researched WAY more than the other one. So the two should not be compared, IMO.

Wow, wiki is a great place to start....of course you can't cite wiki...hence the reason wiki has a cited works part at the bottom. It is a great place to start researching. I don't know any post grad students, or professors, who don't use wiki... what did you get your degree in?

And mammalian, reptilian, plant, bacteria, protists, you name it....it all genetics, the exact same principles apply.

How could you possibly say reptile and mammal genetics are two different things?!

Please please please tell me what makes population genetics between the 2 any different!

The ONLY thing I could possibly think of about the difference in population genetics is the XY, vs. temp controlled, vs. ZW vs X0 sex chromosomes. That is for all sexed species, not just mammals and reptiles. Realistically, that plays little to no part in population genetics, just different variations of a system.

I would also say plant genetics has been studied nearly as much if not equal to mammalian genetics, and no huge differences there, it all applies.

 

[PDoogle]

I understand your point, i fact i very nearly agree with it.

But the answer is where you said 'We have no information about the curly tails at present' ... therefore we dont know if it is in pain or not. and id rather not make more animals that could 'possibly' be suffering, but could possibly be fine.
So, someone has to prove that there are no detromental effects to the animals well being should be bred.
And so most breeders would cull, because a defect on the outside likely means a defect on the inside, which is better than letting it live possibly a harsh life.
If a breeder CANT prove that it is fine and not causing any issues then it shouldnt be bred.

I admit the problems i stated (less fat storing, and tail signals) were maybe minute problems but i believe mentioned earlier were spinal deformities and twisted organs.
And it would be wrong to keep an animal alive suffering from that.

Jordan, well stated, and I admit, I'm not arguing to breed curly tails, I'm arguing to actually start a discussion to make people think about some of these things without the automatic rubber stamp of "BAD"

How do you feel about Enigmas? They are bred with the knowledge the offspring has a great possibility of having severe health issues. Do you think all enigmas should be culled? I can assure you enigma breeders CANT prove the mutation has no ill effects.

Also, I would disagree with the point that a genetic deformity on the outside means a deformity on the inside, that just isn't biologically founded. I mean dimples are a genetic deformity, no problem there, cleft lips, webbed toes, missing digits...I could go on ad infinitum where external mutations have nothing to do with internal issues. The case could be made that there is POSSIBLE internal deformities....but has ANY of the data shown this yet.

 

[Jordan]

Jordan, well stated, and I admit, I'm not arguing to breed curly tails, I'm arguing to actually start a discussion to make people think about some of these things without the automatic rubber stamp of "BAD"

How do you feel about Enigmas? They are bred with the knowledge the offspring has a great possibility of having severe health issues. Do you think all enigmas should be culled? I can assure you enigma breeders CANT prove the mutation has no ill effects.

Also, I would disagree with the point that a genetic deformity on the outside means a deformity on the inside, that just isn't biologically founded. I mean dimples are a genetic deformity, no problem there, cleft lips, webbed toes, missing digits...I could go on ad infinitum where external mutations have nothing to do with internal issues. The case could be made that there is POSSIBLE internal deformities....but has ANY of the data shown this yet.

tbh, im almost at the point where im gonna say 'your right' lol. your argument to me seems to make a lot of sense. But just since were playing this back and forth i'll try and think of some opposing points lol.

i actually dont have a great returning argument tbh (maybe someone who isnt a teenager, with a bit more life experience and a few more qualifications may have though lol, im sure Seamus will have), so i admit defeat lol.
My only thing left to say is, i know you dont plan on breeding them, but im arguing as if you are for the sake of the opposing points; but personally i dont think changing the skeletal structure of an animal is on the same scale as changing the colour.

My thoughts on enigma's. now theres something im quite undecided about. ive only ever owned two enigma's. one with really bad enigma signs and one who apart from the colour and pattern i could barely tell was an enigma as he had no issues.
The reason im undecided is from seeing my bad one, it was horrible, it couldnt eat very well, it walked weird, and all the classics, and id look at it and think no way do i want more of those in my collection.
However my good enigma, id look at and think wow them colours are great id love more of those. because he was as normal as every other gecko in my collection (mentally, i mean)

I have admittedly begun to breed enigma's, (and sorry if anyone disagrees with this), and its because those good enigma's seem completely normal and look great.
And the bad ones, well personally i'll be culling any seriously bad ones that i hatch, because i dont want them.

So as i say, i do breed them, so technically im in favour of it, but at the same time my mind is not yet made up. Until ive spent some time breeding them and witnessing for myself the bad babies and the good babies ( by bad i mean showing lots of signs of the syndrom) and weighing whether its all worth it and whether i should carry on breeding them.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Actually doesn't the occurance of cleft lip generally also include an elongated soft palate? So isn't that one instance of an external defect being accompanied with an internal one? But just to devil's advocate here aren't there just as many external defects that DO have accompanying internal issues as a secondary biproduct?

Btw I don't condone the breeding of enigmas just to be a part of that conversation I thik that the breeding of an animal that has that high of a liklihood of producing quality of life issues shouldn't be perpetuated ergardless of what it has to offer to the color gene pool. It's like breeding dogs in the AKC's eyes... is it pretty? Great then lets breed it to death with otu regard as to whether or not it is sound enough to do the job it was originally intended to do.

 

[PDoogle]

tbh, im almost at the point where im gonna say 'your right' lol. your argument to me seems to make a lot of sense. But just since were playing this back and forth i'll try and think of some opposing points lol.

i actually dont have a great returning argument tbh (maybe someone who isnt a teenager, with a bit more life experience and a few more qualifications may have though lol, im sure Seamus will have), so i admit defeat lol.
My only thing left to say is, i know you dont plan on breeding them, but im arguing as if you are for the sake of the opposing points; but personally i dont think changing the skeletal structure of an animal is on the same scale as changing the colour.

My thoughts on enigma's. now theres something im quite undecided about. ive only ever owned two enigma's. one with really bad enigma signs and one who apart from the colour and pattern i could barely tell was an enigma as he had no issues.
The reason im undecided is from seeing my bad one, it was horrible, it couldnt eat very well, it walked weird, and all the classics, and id look at it and think no way do i want more of those in my collection.
However my good enigma, id look at and think wow them colours are great id love more of those. because he was as normal as every other gecko in my collection (mentally, i mean)

I have admittedly begun to breed enigma's, (and sorry if anyone disagrees with this), and its because those good enigma's seem completely normal and look great.
And the bad ones, well personally i'll be culling any seriously bad ones that i hatch, because i dont want them.

So as i say, i do breed them, so technically im in favour of it, but at the same time my mind is not yet made up. Until ive spent some time breeding them and witnessing for myself the bad babies and the good babies ( by bad i mean showing lots of signs of the syndrom) and weighing whether its all worth it and whether i should carry on breeding them.

Jordan well stated and summarized. I like to bring up this debate for the simple fact of what just happened, we both intelligently looked at the pros and cons of our selective breeding habits.

The fact that you have an open mind shows you will be responsible herper for years to come

 

[PDoogle]

Actually doesn't the occurance of cleft lip generally also include an elongated soft palate? So isn't that one instance of an external defect being accompanied with an internal one? But just to devil's advocate here aren't there just as many external defects that DO have accompanying internal issues as a secondary biproduct?

Btw I don't condone the breeding of enigmas just to be a part of that conversation I thik that the breeding of an animal that has that high of a liklihood of producing quality of life issues shouldn't be perpetuated ergardless of what it has to offer to the color gene pool. It's like breeding dogs in the AKC's eyes... is it pretty? Great then lets breed it to death with otu regard as to whether or not it is sound enough to do the job it was originally intended to do.

Dog Shrink - Great points, and I would agree.

That being said, we should then make the distinction of exactly when we draw the line. As soon as a color morph has the possibility of having a internal defect (which I can tell you some Albinos have) should be we cull them? This would mean we could no longer selectively breed a vast majority of morphs.

On the other side, should we produce a morph, and THEN determine the issues, and THEN determine if they can be removed through breeding? It seems generations of herpers have acted on the second pretense...

As for Enigmas, I don't claim to have an opinion, I don't know the facts well enough to say I do. I bring it up simply for the sake of a comparison.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Interesting.. what internal issues do yo know of that accompany the albino morph? I'd like to read more about that. BTW your genetics leads are panning out to be quite interesting.

 

[Jordan]

Jordan well stated and summarized. I like to bring up this debate for the simple fact of what just happened, we both intelligently looked at the pros and cons of our selective breeding habits.

The fact that you have an open mind shows you will be responsible herper for years to come

Haha thank you,

Great discussion btw.
Maybe in the morning (it's late here) I'll have a fresh and new good point that I failed to think of earlier. The best replies always come to mind too late lol.

Just as a quick question though and I doubt you'll actually know the answer but what happens if the Leo drops it's tail? Will it grow back normal (well as normal as the regrown ones come) or at an angle or curled or what?

 

[prettyinpink]

Jordan, all leos are different. Some will grow back very nicely...others will be chubby little round looking, and some are bumpy looking.