Enigma abnormalities poll

[sweetsnakes]

I am new to geckos but I have a patternless enigma het tremper I got from kelli an it has never acted strange in fact it is the most docile friendy gecko of the 5 I got. Like I said I'm only going off the one enigma I have but I'm impressed so far can't wait for her to put on a few more grams so I can get more like her LOL.

 

[Ga_herps]

I have a red eyed bell enigma that does not show any outwardly signs other then he is messy sometimes with bulldozing his paper towels. I have another enigma het tremper that luckily has never given me any problems. I do have a mack enigma that star gazes sometimes, and then there is my daughters pet red eyed bell enigma. This little guy will spin if someone walks by the cage, but as long as he is handled gently and no stressful activity is put on him he is fine. I have a few others growing up, but none really show any real bad defects like spinning, or head tilting. I have had some in the past that were really bad, but I never bred them just for the fact I did not think the 2.0 version of any of them would be any better.

 

[RampantReptiles]

How much does she weigh? The "standard" breeding weights thrown around have been creeping up higher and higher and then get repeated as if law. I judge by the overall proportion, weight, and age of the individual gecko. Some geckos are perfectly fine to breed at younger ages because their proportions and weights are good. Some are fine to breed at *somewhat* lower weights because they are old enough and have very good, robust proportions. IMO, too thin is too thin, though. Of course, some geckos just are not fit for breeding, although a problem dam could still be bred for the sake of improving a line. That is obviously more risk and the decision needs to be made carefully, however. For what might be a unique or precious trait, though, it can seem unavoidable.

Maybe the reported age is incorrect, too.

I am talking to the breeder to see what he has to say but I also made a post about her.
Here is a link for that: http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=359696#post359696

 

[Baoh]

I am talking to the breeder to see what he has to say but I also made a post about her.
Here is a link for that: http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=359696#post359696

My thoughts are in line with those of Greg in that thread.

 

[phalanx]

I have some in my collection. Some of them with issues, some of them without issues. I notice that the ones with issues are almost al albino enigma's.

here a short list of some of my enigma's with and without issues:

without issues:
- Enigma het bell female (one of the first Enigma's) +/- 75gr
- Mack snow enigma het bell female: +/- 60 gr
- Mack snow bell enigma male +/- 110 gr
- mack snow enigma het tremper female +/- 70gr
- tang. Enigma het rainwater male: +/- 85 gr
- Enigma het radar: +/- 55gr (late 08 offspring)

With issues:
- Tremper sunglow Enigma female, 50gr
- Tremper albino Enigma het raptor female, 52 gr.
- supersnow bell enigma female, 37 gr (born july 08)
- supersnow bell enigma female, 27 gr (born dec 08)
- supersnow bell enigma female, 28 gr (born dec 08)
- supersnow bell enigma male, 38 gr (born sept 08)
- rainwater enigma het rrs male (+/- 60gr)

The issues are mainly: Not able to catch crickets on a descent way (when compared with non-enigma leopard geckos) They have problems when catching one mealworm out of a small group (in the dish). Very fast stressed, balance -problems... The thoughts of bi-oc. albinisme mentionned by K.H. makes sense to me.

Last year I bought 2 supersnow bell enigma's from 2 different breeders and I hatched 2 myself (from ms bell enigma x supersnow bell and ms bell x ms enigma het bell) All 4 of them are very slow growing. The oldest supersnow female is showing signs of circling and is very easily stressed. She is almost a year and has a weight of 37gr. The last few months she just is not gaining any more weight.
The male bell supersnow is not circling or having signs of enigma abnormalities but also he is not gaining weight as he should. Very small apetite.

Same issues with the own offspring bell supersnow enigma of 2008.
First they grow (but not as fast as for example a non-enigma bell supersnow)
but when around 25 gr they just grow much slower. A bell supersnow female clutchmate of one of the bell supernow enigma's already has a weight of 45 gram, so almost twice the size in about 5 months)

In 2008 I also had some bell Enigma offspring circling,... All came from enigma's without issues x non-enigma's. So far I conclude that the known enigma issues are random. Because I have had enigma offspring with and without issues. Enigma's with issues haven't been bred to avoid any chance of giving the issues to the offspring.

In my contacts with other breeders I hear that they hatch healthy babies of parent enigma's with issues and enigma's with issues out of enigmas with normal behaviour which makes me even more think that the enigma issues are randomly but more expressed in albino enigma's.

Another anoying thing is that most of the enigma's are really messy when compared to non-enigma's. They are always redecorating their enclosure.

 

[radar357]

I have a het DB BB female that arches back touching her nose with her tail spins then falls over on her side when i open her box. I tell friends that i taught her to play ring around the rosie. They are awe struck. Now that i have learned more on the enigmas here, i will be adding them to my gecko gang. I think they are truely awesome and unique. Great read!

 

[EnigmaEcho]

wow- i know a little about enigmas, but i want to know more! i felt i was tricked into getting my sophie, the breeder pushed the "enigma" title a bit- i thought at that time it was a special morph- when i did further research at home, then i realized what i was into. i love my Miss Sophie dearly, even though shes a bit paranoid- and she only started to show symptoms when she got injured ( a rather funny story-sort of) and since then the symptoms have lessened greatly.
she takes patience, but i wouldnt give her up for the world ~heart~
im apalled at the people who deal with enigmas as a "defective product"- as a human with my own issues, perhaps im biased- still, i belive that any and all liveing creature deserves to be treated with care, regaurdless of thier " defect".
that being said, i do understand that paying for an animal and finding out they have problems is an extreem downer, so when one needs to be returned, perhaps it is for the better for the animal and the customer to do so. haveing to give up animals in particular situations myself, its heart breaking at times.
eep! im ranting! sorry, this is an issue ive delt with for a long time and feel deeply about- well, atleast no one will read this, right? lol

 

[Queen Penelope]

Have you ever seen one of those shaky little 2lb chihuahuas? Or a pug it's eyes bulging out of its head as it struggles to breathe despite its severe brachycephalism? Or a German Shepherd dragging its rear-end around at the ripe old age of 3? A Labrador that seems to be in perpetual motion and can never calm the heck down? There's a reason that these things happen to dogs, and it's the same reason that "Enimas" will be problematic to the LG gene pool...

*Note: If you're thinking to yourself, "This girl is about to really piss me off...", please hear me out first. Responsible breeders won't be offended by my rant.*

See, what happens with dogs is that people see certain trends (ex: Australian Shepherds are pretty, Pit Bulls look tough, Chihuahuas are little) and then think, "Hey, I should breed pretty/tough/little dogs!" Nothing wrong with this. There's a reason why people have breed loyalties, and that's fine. BUT the increase in breeding makes them more readily available to... everyone. That's right folks, every joe-shmoe can get their hands on these dogs now. In a perfect world, that wouldn't be a problem. In a perfect world, joe-shmoe would get his yellow lab and say, "Awesome! I have an active yellow lab and I love my dog. Now i'm going to go get it fixed because I haven't dedicated my life to gaining the knowledge required to responsibly contribute to the gene pool of this breed." In case you haven't guessed, that isn't what actually happens. What actually happens is that joe-shmoe decides to breed his dog, and then sells the puppies in the local paper. Joe-shmoe doesn't realize that he ought to get his pups fixed to stop more people from breeding irresponsibly (heck, he doesn't even know that he bred irresponsibly!) and so, at the very least, one of his pups ends up in the hands of another "breeder" who doesn't know what they're doing. Eventually, every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they're a Yellow Lab breeder. "I have a male and a female! I'm gonna make babies!" The bloodlines are now junk, because none of these people have bothered to buy their breeding stock from responsible breeders (why pay $1000 for a puppy when they can get the "same" thing for $100 on Craigslist?) and the general public is still under the impression that when they get a lab, they're getting a smart, athletic family dog. What they're actually getting is a neurotic mess because the last 5 generations of breeders didn't bother to pay attention to the temperament of their sires and dams.

Sadly enough, the same problem arrises in leopard geckos (and all reptiles, really). Everybody who has ever so much as touched a leopard gecko apparently thinks that they should breed them. (Ok maybe that's a little bit of an exaggeration... but it's still a very real problem, especially since people "fall into" breeding pairs by buy unsexed juvies.) The problem is that the entire group of LG "breeders" now covers a very wide range of breeding ethics. Some people, such as Kelli, want to learn about this morph and increase it's vitality. Others... well, others see pretty colors and nothing else. The same kind of folks that go "Well, this German Shepherd only has a little bit of hip dysplasia... I'll just breed it anyhow and see what happens" are the ones that will go "Well, this enigma only has a little bit of head-bobbing... I'll just breed it anyhow and see what happens." I get it, you've spent money on an expensive breeder and you don't want to miss out on the opportunity to use it... but sometimes the right thing to do is take the financial loss in order to not pollute the gene pool. Unfortunately, only a handful of great breeders exist who will take that responsibility seriously. Even more unfortunately, Enigmas are available to both sets.

 

[ForTozs]

I just hatched my first two enigma babies and unfortunately one appears to have circling problems. It may be only when its startled. Do enigmas ever outgrow this? So what would be the responsible thing to do? I feel that the right thing to do would be to make sure this gecko is never bred. However, what about its father? He acts like a very normal gecko, and the other enigma he produced appears to be normal as well. BUT, the gene is there. It seems if I was to follow my first line of logic I shouldn't breed him either... So I don't know. Is it just a random expression in this gene? Is something environmental triggering the expression of this gene? Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this soon. I don't want to contribute to a declining gene pool in leopard geckos.