malt_geckos
Don't Say It's Impossible
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I wouldn't say defective....it makes it sounds like a bad "Tickle Me Elmo" doll that says curse words.... 
Enigma abnormalities poll
- Thread starter dmreptiles
- Start date
dmreptiles
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changing it
i am trying to get the titles to poll changed. sorry i chose the wrong choice of words. everyone who has dealt with me i am sure that they know i mean nothing bad by those titles used and was only referring to enigmas to protect them from the is bad name they are getting on this forum.
i am trying to get the titles to poll changed. sorry i chose the wrong choice of words. everyone who has dealt with me i am sure that they know i mean nothing bad by those titles used and was only referring to enigmas to protect them from the is bad name they are getting on this forum.
malt_geckos
Don't Say It's Impossible
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Duvon- It's all good. I know you didn't mean anything and I'm sure admin will be happy to change the title.
dprince
Mod Squad Member
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Duvon, I know you meant no harm. What would you like the poll to say?
What would you like the poll to say?
dmreptiles
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thanks debbie
3 poll
1. abnormal trait
2. not abnormal
3. some with abnormal traits and others none
not the word defective
3 poll
1. abnormal trait
2. not abnormal
3. some with abnormal traits and others none
not the word defective
Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
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I can change the thread title and poll choices. What exactly would you like the title of the thread to be, and what poll choices would you want the poll questions to say?
MSMD
Lake Effect Leos
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I, for one, greatly appreciate a coopertive 'meeting of the minds' when it comes to this subject (or any needing more exploration with leos). I feel the only way to come to any kind of resolution is for everyone to work together and pool data. As a new leo breeder, I am looking forward to becoming involved with the Enigmas, as well. They are a fascinating morph and I hope the community can work together to learn as much as possible about them in the coming years.
dmreptiles
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I totally agree
I agree with you MSMD
I agree with you MSMD
B
BabygyalSW2
Guest
kind of good poll results so far...but pretty unreliable due to the numbers. If only there was a way of getting more people with enigmas to vote...although I'm sure many already have voted who have been discussing this over the past few days..
Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
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I don't think everyone will participate in this thread. I have spoken to many members with Enigmas that are unwilling to discuss this because of all the recent attacks on peoples opinions and ethics. It's a shame.
boutiquegecko
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But can't you vote and not comment? No one would know who it was, but at least we might have full poll results?
dprince
Mod Squad Member
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Honestly, you'll never get FULL poll results off of ANY poll. It's a great idea in theory, but just doesn't show the information in a very relevant or scientific way. I mean, what if your enigma has a kinked tail? Would someone put THAT as an abnormal trait? If people haven't been following what's going on, and it's not well defined what "abnormal trait" means, they might think that. Know what I mean?
If you think it's only "big breeders", people with a good deal of genetic knowledge, or even people with knowledge about leos in general are the only ones that have or want enigmas, it's just not true. I can't tell you how many people have contacted me, wanting to buy an enigma and have ZERO - and I mean ZERO - idea of what an enigma was, how the gene worked, etc. So if you have a poll that just states "abnormal traits", who knows what some people MIGHT think that means. Seriously.
Like I said, it's a GREAT idea, just won't work super well in this case.
If you think it's only "big breeders", people with a good deal of genetic knowledge, or even people with knowledge about leos in general are the only ones that have or want enigmas, it's just not true. I can't tell you how many people have contacted me, wanting to buy an enigma and have ZERO - and I mean ZERO - idea of what an enigma was, how the gene worked, etc. So if you have a poll that just states "abnormal traits", who knows what some people MIGHT think that means. Seriously.
Like I said, it's a GREAT idea, just won't work super well in this case.
I'm not going to vote on the poll because the three options just aren't capable of adequately representing my experiences with all the Enigmas I've had.
I mean, I have one male Enigma who seems perfectly fine unless he gets really startled--like if you come in the room, flip on the lights and yank his tub open. Then he kinda flips out. He reminds me of a fainting goat. There isn't an option for that in the poll!
I mean, I have one male Enigma who seems perfectly fine unless he gets really startled--like if you come in the room, flip on the lights and yank his tub open. Then he kinda flips out. He reminds me of a fainting goat. There isn't an option for that in the poll!
Nahph1
New Member
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- Rochester, NY
similar to spiders
Not to get off topic, but all this talk about problems with enigmas sure sounds alot like the issue with Spider Ball Pythons. Some breeders say there is no genetic link to spiders and head wobbles and some list them for sale with different degrees of head wobble but insist it's not a problem. Even the creator of the spider morph says that there must be something in the genetics that causes it.
I think that with more experience with the enigmas, the breeders will discover if it's genetic or random. Or mabye it will just be an enigma.
P.S. Hasent Enigma proven to be the perfect name for this morph:main_laugh:
Not to get off topic, but all this talk about problems with enigmas sure sounds alot like the issue with Spider Ball Pythons. Some breeders say there is no genetic link to spiders and head wobbles and some list them for sale with different degrees of head wobble but insist it's not a problem. Even the creator of the spider morph says that there must be something in the genetics that causes it.
I think that with more experience with the enigmas, the breeders will discover if it's genetic or random. Or mabye it will just be an enigma.
P.S. Hasent Enigma proven to be the perfect name for this morph:main_laugh:
Ipsl
New Member
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PaulSage said:
LOL fainting goat?
lytlesnake
Border Patrol Penguin
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I've got 3 enigmas. The het bell has no problems whatsoever, except that he's not the greatest eater. Overall I'm very happy with this gecko, even though I wish he would have put on a little more size by now. I think he's probably big enough to breed some females now, so I may give it a try this week.
Then I've got two het tremper females. One of them doesn't have any problems, the other one is a complete mess. From the moment I took her out of the shipping box she was shaking, so I named her "Shaky". She has very poor balance and eyesight, and she turns in circles a lot. It appears to have absolutely nothing to do with stress, they either turn in circles or they do not. This gecko has a hard time eating, so I give her giant mealies. Superworms or crickets are too fast for her, and regular mealies are too small. When she strikes at a giant mealie she usually misses on the first attempt, and she turns her head to the left at the end of the striking motion. Sometimes she gets discouraged and doesn't eat after missing a few times. So she requires a lot of attention to make sure she's getting enough food. Her balance is so bad that a few times I've seen her flip on her back after missing a worm.
One person who shall go unnamed said that they would breed this gecko anyway. I can tell you that it's not gonna happen. I'm just going to accept the loss of projected income from the enigma project and keep her as a special needs pet. I've tried putting a male in with my other het tremper, but so far she freaks out too much. So it's not looking like I'm gonna get any monetary return on this enigma thing. By the time I breed some I reckon the price will be, uh, not what I was hoping. Still, I will eventually breed some nice enigmas, and hopefully people will appreciate that I only breed and sell healthy geckos.
As for all the coverup talk, I don't know..... It does seem like some people could have posted warnings long before the accusations started flying. If you want to call that a coverup than that's your business. I'm not going there.
I do this as a hobby, though I will admit that I was hoping to make some money. At this point I don't even think about making money. I'm only breeding a few of my females this year. At least raptors, aptors and cremesicles don't have these weird, freakish problems.
I hope none of that gets me banned. I'm a little jaded on this subject. I don't like it when expensive projects turn bad. Very frustrating. Let's leave it at that.
Then I've got two het tremper females. One of them doesn't have any problems, the other one is a complete mess. From the moment I took her out of the shipping box she was shaking, so I named her "Shaky". She has very poor balance and eyesight, and she turns in circles a lot. It appears to have absolutely nothing to do with stress, they either turn in circles or they do not. This gecko has a hard time eating, so I give her giant mealies. Superworms or crickets are too fast for her, and regular mealies are too small. When she strikes at a giant mealie she usually misses on the first attempt, and she turns her head to the left at the end of the striking motion. Sometimes she gets discouraged and doesn't eat after missing a few times. So she requires a lot of attention to make sure she's getting enough food. Her balance is so bad that a few times I've seen her flip on her back after missing a worm.
One person who shall go unnamed said that they would breed this gecko anyway. I can tell you that it's not gonna happen. I'm just going to accept the loss of projected income from the enigma project and keep her as a special needs pet. I've tried putting a male in with my other het tremper, but so far she freaks out too much. So it's not looking like I'm gonna get any monetary return on this enigma thing. By the time I breed some I reckon the price will be, uh, not what I was hoping. Still, I will eventually breed some nice enigmas, and hopefully people will appreciate that I only breed and sell healthy geckos.
As for all the coverup talk, I don't know..... It does seem like some people could have posted warnings long before the accusations started flying. If you want to call that a coverup than that's your business. I'm not going there.
I do this as a hobby, though I will admit that I was hoping to make some money. At this point I don't even think about making money. I'm only breeding a few of my females this year. At least raptors, aptors and cremesicles don't have these weird, freakish problems.
I hope none of that gets me banned. I'm a little jaded on this subject. I don't like it when expensive projects turn bad. Very frustrating. Let's leave it at that.
KelliH
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Jason-
Did you try contacting the breeder that you got the Het Tremper Enigmas from, to give them an opportunity to fix the problem? Perhaps they could have replaced it?
And you are basing this on the three Enigmas you have? How many Enigmas have you bred? How many have you hatched out? How many have you shipped? I've had more than I can count of all of the above, and I know that this behavior does seem to be brought on by stress in certain animals.
Did the breeder that produced the animal tell you to breed it anyway? Or was it someone else?
That happens. That is why I always tell my customers not to get into leopard geckos to make money. When you spend a lot of money on a gecko, be it a brand new morph that no one really knows much about or not, it is a gamble. That animal, or animals, may be an excellent breeder, or it might not be. The animal could die six months after you get it. If it is a male, it could prolapse. Etc etc. Anyone that has been doing this for any length of time knows this, and deals with these problems. Things do not always go as planned.
If you are referring to me, let me give you, and everyone else that is talking about a "coverup" some information. I received 2.2 Enigmas from Mark Bell in May 2006. These animals were supposed to be used for testing out this morph and figuring out the genetics. The plan was for me to be able to take my time and do exactly that, which would have given me at least one real breeding season under my belt with these geckos. NO Enigmas were supposed to be sold until I had time to work with the four I had and do some "test breeding". However, three months later I found out that Enigmas would be available not only at the Daytona show, but also any subsequent shows Mark attended, as well as in Europe. I did not want this, I practically begged him to hold off, but they were his animals, and he opted to change the deal. That is when he asked if I would sell some of his Enigmas for him. I agreed to do it.
My initial observations of the original four Enigmas I had, as well as the subsequent Enigmas that were sent to me to sell for Mark, was that some acted "different". I initially attributed this to the fact that because they had been inbred for several years, they needed to be outcrossed, plain and simple. A lot of the original Enigmas that Mark sent me had tail kinks too. Again, this was something I figured could be taken care of with outcrossing.
The Enigmas were brand new at the time I started selling them. I knew about as much as anyone about them. That is why I gave them the name I did. I said from the beginning that the Enigmas needed serious outcrossing, and I still believe they do.
I have taken care of each and every customer that has had ANY problems with the Enigmas that were shipped from my facility. even though I was not the one that produced them and knew virtually nothing about the genetic background of them. I have gone above and beyond what any, and I do mean ANY other breeder would do. That being said, yes, there have been a few people that expressed concerns about their Enigmas and I do mean a VERY few when you compare it to the number of them I sold. I have taken care of each and every one of them in a manner that has included replacing an adult female with two subadult females (that were probably 35 gram subadults and much nicer than the original girl that was probably 50 grams), I replaced a smaller female for a ready to breed female even though the customer had had that female in his possesion for months. I have sent out my own holdbacks, my lone breeder het males. I have not heard any complaints from any of those people and in fact all of them told me how much they appreciated it and how pleased they were. There are a few quotes here and on Fauna to attest to that.
In my opinion, we are dealing with a genetic morph that has (to my knowledge) never even been seen in reptiles at all (Oculocutaneous Albinism). I in the process of researching this theory. My mom has a Phd in Animal Psychology and she works works with lab rats and mice. She has sent me numerous published scientific papers about Ocular Albinism and Oculocutaneous Albinism, and I am also doing my own research. I have serious plans to send some Enigmas to be tested in a lab so that we can find out more. As I learn more I will let everyone know.
The majority of my customers that got into the Enigmas initially, and those that have bought them from me recently are HAPPY and EXCITED about the project. I certainly am as well. Some of the most beautiful leopard geckos I have ever seen have come out of the Enigma projects. I am more excited about the future with them than I have ever been with any other morph. I DO understand some people are frustrated with the project but I am not going to let it be said that there was some sort of coverup involving Enigmas, on my own website no less, without responding to it. It's not true, period, and I would appreciate it if that word not be used when referencing Enigmas any more on this website. I am more than happy to answer questions if I can, I am more than happy to post any new information or new findings about Enigmas, but I refuse to let these behind the back insinuations go on any longer. Thank you.
Did you try contacting the breeder that you got the Het Tremper Enigmas from, to give them an opportunity to fix the problem? Perhaps they could have replaced it?
And you are basing this on the three Enigmas you have? How many Enigmas have you bred? How many have you hatched out? How many have you shipped? I've had more than I can count of all of the above, and I know that this behavior does seem to be brought on by stress in certain animals.
Did the breeder that produced the animal tell you to breed it anyway? Or was it someone else?
That happens. That is why I always tell my customers not to get into leopard geckos to make money. When you spend a lot of money on a gecko, be it a brand new morph that no one really knows much about or not, it is a gamble. That animal, or animals, may be an excellent breeder, or it might not be. The animal could die six months after you get it. If it is a male, it could prolapse. Etc etc. Anyone that has been doing this for any length of time knows this, and deals with these problems. Things do not always go as planned.
If you are referring to me, let me give you, and everyone else that is talking about a "coverup" some information. I received 2.2 Enigmas from Mark Bell in May 2006. These animals were supposed to be used for testing out this morph and figuring out the genetics. The plan was for me to be able to take my time and do exactly that, which would have given me at least one real breeding season under my belt with these geckos. NO Enigmas were supposed to be sold until I had time to work with the four I had and do some "test breeding". However, three months later I found out that Enigmas would be available not only at the Daytona show, but also any subsequent shows Mark attended, as well as in Europe. I did not want this, I practically begged him to hold off, but they were his animals, and he opted to change the deal. That is when he asked if I would sell some of his Enigmas for him. I agreed to do it.
My initial observations of the original four Enigmas I had, as well as the subsequent Enigmas that were sent to me to sell for Mark, was that some acted "different". I initially attributed this to the fact that because they had been inbred for several years, they needed to be outcrossed, plain and simple. A lot of the original Enigmas that Mark sent me had tail kinks too. Again, this was something I figured could be taken care of with outcrossing.
The Enigmas were brand new at the time I started selling them. I knew about as much as anyone about them. That is why I gave them the name I did. I said from the beginning that the Enigmas needed serious outcrossing, and I still believe they do.
I have taken care of each and every customer that has had ANY problems with the Enigmas that were shipped from my facility. even though I was not the one that produced them and knew virtually nothing about the genetic background of them. I have gone above and beyond what any, and I do mean ANY other breeder would do. That being said, yes, there have been a few people that expressed concerns about their Enigmas and I do mean a VERY few when you compare it to the number of them I sold. I have taken care of each and every one of them in a manner that has included replacing an adult female with two subadult females (that were probably 35 gram subadults and much nicer than the original girl that was probably 50 grams), I replaced a smaller female for a ready to breed female even though the customer had had that female in his possesion for months. I have sent out my own holdbacks, my lone breeder het males. I have not heard any complaints from any of those people and in fact all of them told me how much they appreciated it and how pleased they were. There are a few quotes here and on Fauna to attest to that.
In my opinion, we are dealing with a genetic morph that has (to my knowledge) never even been seen in reptiles at all (Oculocutaneous Albinism). I in the process of researching this theory. My mom has a Phd in Animal Psychology and she works works with lab rats and mice. She has sent me numerous published scientific papers about Ocular Albinism and Oculocutaneous Albinism, and I am also doing my own research. I have serious plans to send some Enigmas to be tested in a lab so that we can find out more. As I learn more I will let everyone know.
The majority of my customers that got into the Enigmas initially, and those that have bought them from me recently are HAPPY and EXCITED about the project. I certainly am as well. Some of the most beautiful leopard geckos I have ever seen have come out of the Enigma projects. I am more excited about the future with them than I have ever been with any other morph. I DO understand some people are frustrated with the project but I am not going to let it be said that there was some sort of coverup involving Enigmas, on my own website no less, without responding to it. It's not true, period, and I would appreciate it if that word not be used when referencing Enigmas any more on this website. I am more than happy to answer questions if I can, I am more than happy to post any new information or new findings about Enigmas, but I refuse to let these behind the back insinuations go on any longer. Thank you.
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