enigma dh/th albino ?

[boutiquegecko]

Are a lot of the enigmas a possible double het tremper/bell unknowingly? If so and it seems frowned upon to create double hets in general for albino, will this not mix things up later? And are there poss triple het albino enigmas out there? Ex-say you have an enigma poss non het, but is really dh b/t and is bred to a lv. Are the albino babies from any of these a possible het for the other albino strain? Trying to figure how that works.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

First off, I think the cases where you find a hidden het on an enigma are going to be rare to non-existent. But I do agree that, in theory, it could happen. So in the case that you should unknowingly stumble upon an enigma that is het or double-het, and you breed this emigma to a second or third albino strain, then the outcome would be:

1.) Homo for one albino strain, Het for one or two albino strains, or
2.) Homo for no albino strains, Het for two or three albino strains

So it looks to me like your understanding of the possible outcomes is correct. :main_yes:

 

[Mel&Keith]

I'd venture to guess that at least half of the Enigmas out there are possible hets for 1 or more unknown traits. Almost all of the original Enigmas released were het for something but only sold as Enigmas. We just proved an '06 male from the Bells to be double het. It's really disappointing! Eventually the probabilities of Enigmas being het for something hidden will be almost non-existent. But most breeders are maybe two or three generations from the originals which were het for all kinds of unknown traits. I hope that people aren't intentionally crossing Albino strains but there are probably a lot of double hets out there just from trying to prove out the parent Enigma. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Paco]

Very Few breeders took the time to prove out the Original Enigmas. Not anyone's fault it was just a timing issue. So there will be lots of double hets out there. The few that did test breed and proved their Enigmas out will have much better breeding stock in the future and animals which will command a higer price. The only problem I see is you will have is to rely on the breeders word about the genetic backround of their animals and unless they test breed they would not know. So hopefully everone is Honest about what they are working with.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Paco, I totally agree. We didn't sell any of our first generation Enigmas (we started with females) because we wanted to wait and study them a bit anyway. I wouldn't even feel comfortable selling anything as being "not het" for certain traits for a very long time. I know that we probably won't make our money back from these but that wasn't the intent anyway. Anything we have sold so far we've sold as "unknown hets". I feel like that's the most honest way to do it. I just feel like at this point it's hard for most breeders to say that they know with any certainty what their Enigmas are het for. The Bells found a cool new trait and bred it to all kinds of morphs trying to figure it out and now we have to continue the process of proving them out.

 

[Paco]

Very Cool

Paco, I totally agree. We didn't sell any of our first generation Enigmas (we started with females) because we wanted to wait and study them a bit anyway. I wouldn't even feel comfortable selling anything as being "not het" for certain traits for a very long time. I know that we probably won't make our money back from these but that wasn't the intent anyway. Anything we have sold so far we've sold as "unknown hets". I feel like that's the most honest way to do it. I just feel like at this point it's hard for most breeders to say that they know with any certainty what their Enigmas are het for. The Bells found a cool new trait and bred it to all kinds of morphs trying to figure it out and now we have to continue the process of proving them out.

Well Mel and Keith at least we know you are one of the honest ones.:main_thumbsup: I know Mike R. test breed his Original Enigmas to both Bell and Tremper's and proved them out for those traits for sure. Hopefully more people will be as honest with the genetics they are using. If they even know what they have?

 

[PSGeckos]

:main_huh: CONFUSED:main_huh:

Ok so are we bad?
We put a known Enigma het Bell to a Tremper Tangerine Albino, they've only produced 2 hatchlings so far from their clutches and we got a Normal Enigma presumably 100% het Tremper, 50% het Bell and a normal (well looking at it being a super hypo) presumably he could be double het?

I don't understand why it is so bad :main_huh:

 

[boutiquegecko]

Welll, I wouldn't say it's bad exactly. At least you'll know if your enigma is het tremper. You could always ask who you got it from the background on it and look at the breedings done to produce it-sort of like a family genetic tree. That way you could see the % possibility of it being het tremper.

So if the enigmas were crossed into both bell and tremper then what, possibly half of the first/second gens are dh t/b? And the percent will drop if you bred a enimga 100% het bell but 50% tremper to a bell, the tremper percent goes down right? So eventually you would only have enigma het bell no tremper? Same with tremper.
This is interesting to me. I knew they were crossed into trempers, but hadn't realized some were poss het tremper from the get go.

 

[PSGeckos]

Welll, I wouldn't say it's bad exactly. At least you'll know if your enigma is het tremper. You could always ask who you got it from the background on it and look at the breedings done to produce it-sort of like a family genetic tree. That way you could see the % possibility of it being het tremper.

So if the enigmas were crossed into both bell and tremper then what, possibly half of the first/second gens are dh t/b? And the percent will drop if you bred a enimga 100% het bell but 50% tremper to a bell, the tremper percent goes down right? So eventually you would only have enigma het bell no tremper? Same with tremper.
This is interesting to me. I knew they were crossed into trempers, but hadn't realized some were poss het tremper from the get go.

Ahh cool, we got our Enigmas from Kelli, so we feel confident that we've got what she sold them as
And when we sell on the offspring we sell them with a birth certificate so hopefully this will help the new owner with the genetic side of things.

Thanks for your reply

 

[Mel&Keith]

Kelli would definitely be able to tell you whether it was one that she produced (it probably was). We bought our original Enigma females from her but she made it very clear that they had been produced by Mark Bell and that she had no idea what they were het for.

As long as you disclose the fact that your geckos are possible double hets b/t then I think it's a personal choice. I prefer to keep all of our albino strains separate so it's disappointing to discover hidden traits in some of these geckos because I wouldn't use them in our projects again. Some people might not mind it though.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

This is one area where it does make it easier to make sure the strains aren't crossed together.

With the Enigma being a dominate trait, there is no reason to breed siblings or even related animals together.

I personally have bred my Bell enigma male to some RRS females. The babies are all double hets. Now I have produced enigmas that are het for both Bell albino and Rainwater albino. When I bred these animals next season, it will be easy to track them. I will only breed them to pure Bell albinos or pure Rainwater albinos. This will produce animals that only have a 50% chance of carrying the other albino trait. Since I will never have to breed related animals together, the chances of the other albino strain being present will only decrease with each breeding season.

Any and all animals that I sell from this project will be labeled as such.

 

[Paco]

This is going to be a touchy subject for some people for sure. I mean you hear all the time not to cross Albino strains it's not good, it's a waste of time and resources, it make's for weaker animals and many, many more comments I have read or heard. But now that the Enigma shows up it's Ok to go ahead and cross Albino strains together? I am not to sure where I stand on this subject right now, I will have to talk to a few more breeders and get their input and opinions before I come to final conclusion. As for now I know my Nova male is non het Bell. So he Only goes with Tremper Line Females.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I have always said that there is no point in crossing the albino genes together. Trying to produce a double or triple homozygous animal. The reason for that would simply be because of the confusion it would cause. It would be impossible to tell one strain of albino from the other. There would be a lot of line breeding involved. With the Enigma gene being a dominate trait, there is no reason to line breed, you could and should out cross every animal from the project.

In my opinion this is also not the type of project for an inexperienced keeper. Detailed records need to be kept and special care does need to be taken to make sure that there is not any confusion in what should be at least a 3 season project.


With all of that being said, I am quite certain that there are many, many animals out there that have hidden genetics in there background. I am certain that many inexperienced keepers have tried to breed the different strains of albinos together and were very disappointed when all of the babies hatched out normals. They then proceed to throw in the towel and give up. They sell the project and the resulting offspring without ever releasing the details.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Just as another thought, how are you suppose to prove out the genetic background of an animal without crossing it to other genetic traits???

You can't. Therefore to prove an animal is not het for another trait, you have to create the very animals that you are worried about?

It's kind of a catch 22.

My whole point is to be responsible and keep everything out in the open.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Just as another thought, how are you suppose to prove out the genetic background of an animal without crossing it to other genetic traits???

You can't. Therefore to prove an animal is not het for another trait, you have to create the very animals that you are worried about?

It's kind of a catch 22.

My whole point is to be responsible and keep everything out in the open.

Well said.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

This is turning out to be a very interesting read. And having carefully read through it's entirety, I have a question.

At what point (Jeremy or Mel, whoever wants to take the question) do you consider an albino strain "bred out" of an animal? I think I read somewhere quite a while back (yeah, I suffer from CRS :main_laugh: ), the magic number was < 25% het for the trait. Is this correct, or what's the "generally accepted" standard? Thanks in advance!

 

[Paco]

Well Said

Just as another thought, how are you suppose to prove out the genetic background of an animal without crossing it to other genetic traits???

You can't. Therefore to prove an animal is not het for another trait, you have to create the very animals that you are worried about?

It's kind of a catch 22.

My whole point is to be responsible and keep everything out in the open.

Jermey As I said it's a touchy subject for a few. I have no probelm with it myself. I was just stating an observation is all. You had several valid points as well and I agree with you 100%. Hopefully Everyone is as Honest about what they are working with. :main_thumbsup: So as you said, genetics can be kept track of in the future.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Maurice, I think that seasons would be a great start. That would leave them at 25% possible het. Obviously they still have a chance of re-producing either albino strain though. Therefore, I would still informing my customers about their genetic history. If they don't like the honesty, they can buy an animal from someone who either won't disclose it or doesn't know. All, of the Enigmas still have the potential to pop out an oddball. LOL

In my opinion this is also not the type of project for an inexperienced keeper. Detailed records need to be kept and special care does need to be taken to make sure that there is not any confusion in what should be at least a 3 season project.

Paco, I don't know why this would be a touchy subject. If anyone were to ask me if they should bred the albino strains together, I would tell them no. LOL

Didn't your parents ever tell you "do as I say, not as I do". Damn them, I am becoming my parents. lol

 

[Paco]

It's from

Maurice, I think that seasons would be a great start. That would leave them at 25% possible het. Obviously they still have a chance of re-producing either albino strain though. Therefore, I would still informing my customers about their genetic history. If they don't like the honesty, they can buy an animal from someone who either won't disclose it or doesn't know. All, of the Enigmas still have the potential to pop out an oddball. LOL




Paco, I don't know why this would be a touchy subject. If anyone were to ask me if they should bred the albino strains together, I would tell them no. LOL

Didn't your parents ever tell you "do as I say, not as I do". Damn them, I am becoming my parents. lol

It's just talking to a couple of other breeders and their opinions on cross breeding strains of Albino's and their feelings on that subject. Some just feel it's wrong. They may not speak up on a forum but they feel it's wrong. They feel once you know an animals backround you should not out breed to other strains of Albino is all. Like I said I don't have a problem with it as of now, but I know there are others that do. As I said before I am just making a point. There are breeders out there that have test breed their Animals for certain Albino morphs and thats where the breeding question is coming in and what the issue is about, any other morph in the mix would not seriously effect the outcome and would be a bonus. IMO We have allready tried to cross every morph out to date into every strain of Albino so we know thats a non issue. Jeremy at least you have a sense of humor.:main_thumbsup:

 

[boutiquegecko]

So then possibly by the 3rd/4th season the other albino strain "should" be bred out of the offspring going by if the enimga was 100% for both albinos at the start? Would it go like this if the parents are bred to one strain to dissolve the other?
parents 100% dh t/b (bred to a t so=
1st gen-50% het b?
2nd-25% het b?
3rd-less than? with each consecutive season bringing a lesser chance of the other albino strain? Thought it might make more sense to see it.
While it did create more dh's or hets etc, I think it's great that some of the first people working with enigmas had the foresight to prove out thier enigmas either tremper/bell or both.