enigma dh/th albino ?

[boutiquegecko]

Well, I think most of us do agree crossing the albino strains is not right, seeing how it was done years and years ago to prove them diff strains, so there's no point in it. But with the enigma it seems it started out dh t/b so I guess the question is this-you buy an enigma that is poss het tremper and bell. What do you breed it to? I think most people who invested in the first enigmas were faced with that question. Do you try to prove it out or breed to one strain and lable the babies poss het the other?
Anyhow, so it would take 3 poss 4 seasons to dissolve the other strain? Would it look like this?
enigma 100% dh t/b x tremper
1st gen=tremper 50% het bell x tremper
2nd gen=tremper 25% bell x tremper
3rd=less than 25% bell? x tremper
4th=no bell?

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Jeremy, Thanks for the helpful response!

While it did create more dh's or hets etc, I think it's great that some of the first people working with enigmas had the foresight to prove out thier enigmas either tremper/bell or both.

Marlo, no doubt that this "ground work" will prove invaluable! :main_yes:

 

[Halley]

Well I think the only way you can have the right to call an animal 0% het, is to test breed it.

I don’t think you can say
P1=100%
F1=50%
F2=25%
F3=12.5%
F4=6.25%
F5=3.125%

Although these percentages are correct, and you could label the hatchlings as such I don’t think you can call a 12.5% chance, 0%. JMO on that, but I think you need to test breed to know for sure.

 

[boutiquegecko]

sorry for the double post. The screen switched and I had to start over-didn't realize it duplicated.

 

[dprince]

Well, I think most of us do agree crossing the albino strains is not right, seeing how it was done years and years ago to prove them diff strains, so there's no point in it. But with the enigma it seems it started out dh t/b so I guess the question is this-you buy an enigma that is poss het tremper and bell. What do you breed it to? I think most people who invested in the first enigmas were faced with that question. Do you try to prove it out or breed to one strain and lable the babies poss het the other?
Anyhow, so it would take 3 poss 4 seasons to dissolve the other strain? Would it look like this?
enigma 100% dh t/b x tremper
1st gen=tremper 50% het bell x tremper
2nd gen=tremper 25% bell x tremper
3rd=less than 25% bell? x tremper
4th=no bell?

I'm not sure *I* would personally say it's "not right" to cross albino strains, I just don't see the necessity. With the enigmas, people have NO IDEA what the original enigmas are/are not het for, so just like proving out the albino strains, people are crossing them to different things to find out their genetics.

I personally agree with Jeremy (and others) who have stated that as long as the seller is honest about the genetics, I don't see the problem in it. There's no real way to learn otherwise, unfortunately.

 

[Sandra]

I wouldn't knowingly produce or buy an animal that carries genetics for two different strains of albinism. That doesn't mean I have something against people that do it or that I'm not open to discuss on the matter.

If there's only a possibility, I may do. For instance, I bought an enigma het Bell knowing that it could be het Tremper and other things but I hope she isn't (breeding will tell). If I had been assured that she was both het Tremper and Bell, I wouldn't have wanted her (not as a breeder, at least). I may breed her to a Tremper to test if she is het Tremper, but only because I have a 50% chance that the offspring won't be het Bell. I wouldn't just breed an homozygous Bell and homozygous Tremper together because I know for sure that I would be producing double hets. I don't know if I'm explaining myself right...

In my opinion it is detrimental to the hobby to produce double/triple albino hets. We have already enough of a hard time telling apart albino strains when the gecko's genetic background is unknown sometimes, there's no need to add more to it.

But I'll admit sometimes it is necessary to do this kind of crosses. Specially when proof-breeding the gecko's genetic background or, as in the case of enigmas, when you want to "tranfer" one mutation that is given in one albino strain to another albino strain.

I agree with Jeremy that this should be done only by responsible breeders. I wouldn't like seeing inexperienced people indiscriminatingly crossing albino strains without disclosing the hets.

And I agree with Nicholas too, that although the possibility may be low, unless proven by breeding, it should be stated. There is no 'standard' on considering an animal het, possible het or no het. You either know it is, know it isn't or just don't know.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Sandra, I appreciate your response but you send a very mixed message.

I wouldn't knowingly produce or buy an animal that carries genetics for two different strains of albinism.

I think that this is the public answer that everybody would like to give.
However the reality is, sometimes crossing those lines is a necessary evil.

For instance, I bought an enigma het Bell knowing that it could be het Tremper and other things but I hope she isn't (breeding will tell).
If I had been assured that she was both het Tremper and Bell, I wouldn't have wanted her (not as a breeder, at least). I may breed her to a Tremper to test if she is het Tremper, but only because I have a 50% chance that the offspring won't be het Bell. I wouldn't just breed an homozygous Bell and homozygous Tremper together because I know for sure that I would be producing double hets. I don't know if I'm explaining myself right...

I do believe that I completely understand your point of view. You seem to be a little uncertain of it your self though. Like I said, I think that this is how the majority feels. We would like to keep the lines seperate.

In my opinion it is detrimental to the hobby to produce double/triple albino hets. We have already enough of a hard time telling apart albino strains when the gecko's genetic background is unknown sometimes, there's no need to add more to it.

With the Enigma, it is the best case scenario. There is absoloutely no reason to breed any related animals together. Therefore, we can control which bloodline of albino continues to be present in the genetic history of the animal.

But I'll admit sometimes it is necessary to do this kind of crosses. Specially when proof-breeding the gecko's genetic background or, as in the case of enigmas, when you want to "tranfer" one mutation that is given in one albino strain to another albino strain.

I agree with Jeremy that this should be done only by responsible breeders. I wouldn't like seeing inexperienced people indiscriminatingly crossing albino strains without disclosing the hets.

And I agree with Nicholas too, that although the possibility may be low, unless proven by breeding, it should be stated. There is no 'standard' on considering an animal het, possible het or no het. You either know it is, know it isn't or just don't know.

Sandra, my intention was not to pick apart your thread. I do truly understand your points and respect you for sharing them. I just knew that this would be the type of confused response I would get. This was actually my first thoughts also. Then I spent some time thinking about it. I want to thank you for your thoughts and encourage any other responses. As long as everthing stays polite, I would love to continue this discussion.

 

[Sandra]

No worries Jeremy As I said I don't mind discussing about this topic.

I know my opinions are still a bit mixed up. I don't want to cross strains but as you say, I understand that in some cases it is a 'necessary evil'.

I guess that being uncertain about the genetics of the animal makes me feel a little better that knowing for sure that I am producing an animal that carries both strains. They say ignorance is bliss...

A random thought on the matter. I actually think that pure enigmas, proven het for nothing, would sell quite well... Maybe not to common hobbyists, that look for flashy geckos, but to breeders that want to introduce them into their projects. I'd be surprised if no one was working on that.