Enigmas and all of the threads lately

[KelliH]

He posted somewhere that he has bought Enigmas from three different people (including Kelli and I) but the 'defective' one he has is not from Kelli or I. I didn't know who else he got one from.

Jason didn't buy any Enigmas from me. I think he told me he got two from Mike and the one from you (which is fine).

 

[PaulSage]

Jason didn't buy any Enigmas from me. I think he told me he got two from Mike and the one from you (which is fine).

Hmmm... I swear he said he did, but maybe I misread his post.

 

[PaulSage]

I found it. It was made in the thread Steve started about the Leopard Gecko market

I will attempt to post from the perspective of someone who bought an enigma with problems without ruffling any feathers.

Yes the price of a dominant morph is pretty much guaranteed to drop quicker than that of animals bred from recessive traits. I knew this before I bought my enigmas. While I agree that one should not get upset about dropping prices with any morph, I do think people have a legitimate right to be disappointed when animals exhibit neurological problems that appear to be genetic in origin. I don't think it's fair to label such a person as despicable or ignorant. It depends on their motivations I guess. If they are motivated by greed, then you can call them what you like.

Also, there is a difference between expressing disappointment and blaming someone. If I had said "It's the breeders fault that I am not getting rich on these things", that would be uncool on my part. I do not, however, think it's unreasonable to be a little upset when you pay a lot for a gecko that walks in circles and can barely manage to eat because it can hardly see and has balance problems. It always saddens me to see the animal in this state. Not because I won't be making money from breeding her, but because I feel badly for the poor gecko.

To be clear, I did not purchase my "special needs" Enigma from either Kelli or Paul, or from Mark or anyone else mentioned in this thread for that matter. I do not blame the person I bought her from for anything. Nobody can control the DNA of a leopard gecko. We can breed different geckos to each other, but when a new morph randomly pops out of someone's collection, there is no guarantee that it will be free of genetic anomalies. Therefore, nobody is to blame.

It frankly sucks that anyone is getting grief over this stuff. I can see where repeated negative comments would start to get more than annoying. This is a wonderful hobby. When it becomes part hobby and part business though, there becomes a potential for conflicted feelings. I think most people who breed and sell leopard geckos really do love and respect them. Just because someone expresses their frustration over a situation that didn't work out as they had hoped does not automatically make them Hitler. They're most likely a good, caring person who just got a little carried away for a moment and typed something that they could have worded a little better. I think most of us have probably done that at one time or another.

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=187180&postcount=39

I guess I read that as he has Enigmas from Kelli, myself, Mark & someone else.

 

[KelliH]

I can see how you would get that from his post. He did kind of make it sound that way. Here is one where he explains it a little better. One of the two females he got from Mike he got for half price.

The breeder I got the enigma het tremper females from only had two. I originally purchased one of them. The breeder did not put the name of the species on the outside of the box. The agriculture department opened the box. The gecko dropped her tail. I was not pleased. The breeder was not happy with this either, and had other shipments with problems that week. So I asked the breeder to sell me the second one at half price rather than refund half my money. The breeder went to the trouble of getting a ProPak box from a friend to further protect the second gecko that was shipped to me.

So I open the box and the gecko is shaking. After all the troubles this breeder had been through with shipping that week, I just didn't have the heart to tell this person that there appeared to be something wrong with the second gecko. I hoped it was just shipping stress and that she would snap back to normal soon.

Yes these are the only 3 enigmas I've had, and I knew when I typed that part about them either having problems or not that I would be called out on it. I have a hard time believing that one stressful incident (shipping) would make a gecko permanently stressed. My geckos are kept in a quiet room, Shaky has no stress in her life other than her apparent neurological issues. I think this gecko has inherent problems that are not related to stress. However, I'll admit that other enigmas may only walk in circles when they are immediately stressed. If this is the observation of people who have much more experience with enigmas than I, I will not question it.

The person who told me to breed her anyway was not the breeder I purchased her from. This person is a friend of that breeder though, and also recommended that I don't tell the breeder about the second gecko's problems because it would have been devastating to them. Then that person eventually did tell the breeder about it. The breeder was apparently "floored" by this information, but has not contacted me.

As I stated, I did not get into leopard geckos just for the money. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some kind of return on an investment though. However, I agree, there are no guarantees when investing in anything.

I was not trying to make behind the back insinuations about you specifically Kelli. I guess it came off that way though, so all I can do is say I'm sorry for that. I thought that other breeders had them early on too. All I was trying to say is that I didn't read anything about enigmas exhibiting strange behavior until after I had bought them. Two out of three of my enigmas seem to be fine, but Shaky is definitely messed up. I will not breed her... ever. I can only strongly implore other people to do the same. If your enigma exhibits strange behavior, it would probably be best for the gene pool at large if that gecko were not bred.

http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=180128&postcount=42

 

[Mel&Keith]

Wow, for once I made an assumption that didn't make an ass out of me! I guess it was really more of a deduction from that thread though. Mike was the only one who had quite a few Enigmas, was working with Trempers and then got out of them and wasn't mentioned in the thread.

 

[o0 Ryan 0o]

Being pissy about it without looking for solutions or answers is just stupid dumb. :main_thumbsdown:

Agreed :main_yes:

Marcia, let us know what you decide to say. I still can't believe he had the nerve to say that.

Kelli, I like the chat idea. Hopefully it will help a bunch.

Random - You know what blows my mind. Most of the smaller breeders are the giant douchers. It's funny you would think the bigger breeders would be the ones to be short with people since they're so busy. Honestly, most of the big breeders are the coolest people to talk to. I'm really getting tired of all of the BS between some of these people lately. PS - I know there are great smaller breeders and some super annoying big breeders, but the trends seems to go with I said above.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, it looks like I didn't have to even reply to his PM, becasue I got this one just now:

not an elitist

No, not Barak Obama, I'm talking about myself. I just wanted to add that I don't think I'm better than anyone else just because I refuse to breed these enigmas. It might have sounded like that. Sorry. I'm doing my best to restrain myself from posting to these threads at all. I think the damage to the morph has been done, but I won't post anything negative anymore, I promise.

It is a bummer that I spent $3,000 on Enigmas, but as I said, they will make enjoyable pets in a couple nicely decorated terrariums. paulnj has offered to give me a free enigma het tremper to replace Shaky, but I don't think I'm going to take him up on it since I've decided not to breed them now.

I did send Pete & Sarah a message explaining that Mark Bell released the Enigmas before sufficient test breeding could be done. He told Kelli she was either in or out, so it's not her fault. I also told them that she's getting a lot of flack from people in Europe who didn't even buy their Enigmas from her, which is not cool.

I'd imagine Kelli thinks I'm one of these little pricks who is running around behind her back talking smack. Actually I'm defending her at this point. I think I'll take a bit of a break from the forum for a while and concentrate on getting my work done. Anyway, you take care and have a good one! You don't need to reply to this, no worries.

Jason

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

It almost sounds as if he had some insight into your dilemma.
That or he had an Epiphany.

 

[KelliH]

Wow, I feel so lucky to have this guy defending me to these nameless people. :main_rolleyes:

Pete and Sarah and everyone else already knew about the Mark Bell stuff, it's all been posted here before. I understand Jason is upset, but his bitterness is not good for him. :main_no:

 

[KelliH]

But on a lighter note, at least now you don't need to think about a response to his first pm.

I also hope the Enigma chat helps and people can -sort of- be on the same page with all of this.

 

[PaulSage]

Most of the smaller breeders are the giant douchers.

:main_laugh:

I've noticed that too. It seems that some of the most outspoken people about the Enigma issues only have a few or none at all. I think this has created a problem because it seems to be giving certain people the idea that the "issues" are more prevalent than they really are. Like I said in PSGeckos' thread, the percentage of afflicted Enigmas is significantly lower than some people are implying or inferring (at least in my experience anyway, and I think I've hatched enough to justify my assessment.)

 

[PaulSage]

Marcia, a thought just crossed my mind with regard to the potential study.

Do you think it would help get the study rolling if the UCDVS was supplied with a video of a fumbling, wobble-headed Enigma? I was just thinking that it might feed their curiosity. I have the one Enigma with "issues" but I've never taken video with a digital camera before. I don't think my E500 or my 40D have movie capabilities, but I think my little p.o.s. Cyber-Shot might.

Just a thought...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Paul, it certainly couldn't hurt. My appointment is by telephone, so I'm going to have to sound very 'scientific' to get his/her attention. I suppose they will want a detailed, written proposal as well.

 

[PaulSage]

When is the appointment again?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Tuesday April 29, 2007 at 3:40 PM.

 

[Jeanne]

Agreed :main_yes:

Marcia, let us know what you decide to say. I still can't believe he had the nerve to say that.

Kelli, I like the chat idea. Hopefully it will help a bunch.

Random - You know what blows my mind. Most of the smaller breeders are the giant douchers. It's funny you would think the bigger breeders would be the ones to be short with people since they're so busy. Honestly, most of the big breeders are the coolest people to talk to. I'm really getting tired of all of the BS between some of these people lately. PS - I know there are great smaller breeders and some super annoying big breeders, but the trends seems to go with I said above.

Maybe the smaller breeders are complaining more because $1000 + is a lot more money for them to lose than it is for a bigger breeder? And these smaller breeders probably went and bought the Enigmas thinking (And this was dumb of them) that they would get the initial investment back plus some. Again, I am not defending them, I know, you can't gamble what you can't afford to lose, and Leopard Gecko breeding is a gamble.