enigmas

[oceanoasis]

i am new to the enigma morph. i have heard that they do some weird stuff like circling and stargazing and flipping over. why do they do this. i also heard that you souldnt mix enigmas. why. will it make these weird behaviors?

 

[OneFootedAce]

i am new to the enigma morph. i have heard that they do some weird stuff like circling and stargazing and flipping over. why do they do this. i also heard that you souldnt mix enigmas. why. will it make these weird behaviors?

its believed that crossing enigma x enigma you will have increased deformities in your hatchlings. People like Kelli and a few others are doing studies on why enigmas have this "syndrome" but its not yet known. Gregg Madden also has a theory, run a search on the forum and see if you can find the thread he started, it was fairly recently, with his theory which is pretty interesting

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

its believed that crossing enigma x enigma you will have increased deformities in your hatchlings

This not entirely true. Personally, I have NEVER done and Enigma x Enigma cross, and I have Enigmas with varying degrees of the 'syndrome' that produce offspring without any symptoms, and have produced babies with symptoms from Enigmas that did not exhibit ANY symptoms.

I think we need to wait until the study being conducted is complete. For newer members with questions on the Enigma, I suggest using the search function for the forum. There are LOTS of threads, posts, and information on the subject.

 

[ElapidSVT]

but...
have you produced non-enigma babies with the 'syndrome' from your enigma crosses?

i have one that i don't think is an enigma but sure acts like one. this worries me slightly.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Ohhh, NO! I have not produced any non-enigma offspring that exhibited any of the enigma 'syndrome' behavior.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

but...
have you produced non-enigma babies with the 'syndrome' from your enigma crosses?

i have one that i don't think is an enigma but sure acts like one. this worries me slightly.

And this is why I plan to keep non-enigma siblings separate from any other projects just in case. I am paranoid that something like that is going to happen... Someone had brought up a good thread earlier asking if non-enigma geckos from an enigma pairing should be labeled as such and im starting to think yes. Just like all the hypos are mostly Ray Hines line and you would be hard pressed to find any different im afraid such will be the case with enigma and non-enigma siblings.

 

[KelliH]

No Enigma siblings do not have the issues. The Enigmas do not really have a "syndrome", they all have a flaw in the cerebellum that causes issues with balance and depth perception. Whatever the gene is that makes them look the way they do also (unfortunately) causes this flaw. I will be speaking to Dr. Nick Millichamp this coming weekend at the East Texas Herpetological Conference and should have lots more info after that. I'll let everyone know as soon as I know more.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

I was actually looking into the whole vitamin B theory Gregg had and it's pretty interesting. Thiamine isn't the only B vitamin that could produce these symptoms though. The absence or inability to absorb the B12 vitamin causes deterioration of the CNS and cerebellar functioning in humans I believe. Cerebellar ataxia has the same symptoms as what most people describe as signs of the syndrome.
Also without B6 vitamin the bodies ability to regulate Potassium and Sodium is compromised so I was thinking this might have to do with the enigma syndrome- as an overabundance of either can cause muscle spasms.
It could be similar to a condition seen in horses called HYPP, Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis. It is linked genetically to a dominant mutation.This mutation causes the cells to leak potassium and cause muscle spasms/hyper excitability of muscle tissue. The spasms can actually be brought on by eating a diet too high in potassium. mhttp://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php
I'm looking forward to reading what you find out this coming weekend

 

[KelliH]

Gregg's theory is VERY interesting. I am going to talk to my guy about it too.

 

[godzillizard]

I absolutely love the look of the enigmas, but I've had excruciatingly difficult experience working with them. In '08, I bred a male Tremper enigma het Raptor ($3500 gecko at the time) to virtually every female (Tremper/raptor line) I had. Some of the babies exhibited no symptoms until they became sexually mature, but some suffered from the day they hatched. After wholesaling off all the sibs, I eventually ended up euthanizing every single enigma I produced. Short of one jungle giant Tremper Enigma male who spins like a cyclone and spasms like a fish out of water. All of the babies had what appeared to be nutrient absorption issues, some having skin looking abnormally thin and delicate. I have no way of knowing how much of this was dietary/genetically/??? caused, but it made my heart sink like its never sunk before. Feelings of "breeder guilt" grew within me and I made up my mind to leave the mutation breeding to other more thick-skinned people. I don't mean to be so dark/negative, some folks have virtually no "enigma issues", but I felt like I needed to share this for a long time...it really hurt

 

[robin]

yeah thats gotta be hard. as it looks so far (as the testing has gone) none of the enigma sibs had any abnormalities but still it sounds like you have a tough season last year. i am so sorry

 

[oceanoasis]

sorry to hear that.
i had to put down my oldest geckojust before daytona. his tank mate had pulled his tail off and he had stopped eating and was litterally a skeleton with skin. i had to get my bf to do it. it still makes me sad.

my nova shows a little of the "symptoms" mostly when i put her in the light or right after she eats and is a little excited but she just spins 2 or 3 times then walks back under her hide. My other enigma has yet to show any signs.

i am glad they are both girls so i dont have the temptation to breed them together.

thanks for all the input.

 

[Anthony Caponetto]

This not entirely true. Personally, I have NEVER done and Enigma x Enigma cross, and I have Enigmas with varying degrees of the 'syndrome' that produce offspring without any symptoms, and have produced babies with symptoms from Enigmas that did not exhibit ANY symptoms.

Ditto, except we've never bred any Enigmas that exhibit symptoms...and we still produce quite a few that spin like a top when they get scared.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

No Enigma siblings do not have the issues. The Enigmas do not really have a "syndrome", they all have a flaw in the cerebellum that causes issues with balance and depth perception. Whatever the gene is that makes them look the way they do also (unfortunately) causes this flaw. I will be speaking to Dr. Nick Millichamp this coming weekend at the East Texas Herpetological Conference and should have lots more info after that. I'll let everyone know as soon as I know more.

Bump!
Did this meeting reveal any new info?

 

[ang3l3s]

Bump!
Did this meeting reveal any new info?

I believe on my thread ,enigma 2010, will u breed, kelli stated that the brains are the same as normal leos.

 

[robin]

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=53380

 

[Alexakis]

sorry to hear that.
i had to put down my oldest geckojust before daytona. his tank mate had pulled his tail off and he had stopped eating and was litterally a skeleton with skin. i had to get my bf to do it. it still makes me sad.

my nova shows a little of the "symptoms" mostly when i put her in the light or right after she eats and is a little excited but she just spins 2 or 3 times then walks back under her hide. My other enigma has yet to show any signs.

i am glad they are both girls so i dont have the temptation to breed them together.

thanks for all the input.

i also have to Nova het DB females, one of them is 100% with non enigma symptoms and i hope realy this doesnt changes when thay got ready to breed, but the other girls has, i would say LITTLE symptoms of the Enigmasyndrom, when i feed her and she try to catch for example the worm she turned hes head so extremly from left to right to get the worm! This makes me realy said... and i dont know if e should breed her next year!?