Genetic terminology - Proper use of the word "heterozygous"

[yellermelon]

IMO, which isn't worth anything . Your bending terminology . Codom traiT Mack snow. Not het super snow. Co Dom is showing the trait is a visual to be carrying traits for the super form. Simular to a het BUT totally differrent.
Bending terms in a thread like this will do nothing but confuse new people trying to make sensce of somthing already overwhelming.

 

[Northstar Herp]

It's not just limited to leopard geckos, the term "super" is used in other herps as well, what do they mean? What you guys are saying is correct, but I don't really even know what you're fighting for. If someone came on here and posted a thread about their "het giant" they would be bombarded with info on why there is not het giant. Nobody talks about het. enigmas, het. snows, het. giants, etc... but you want to start now?

The entire herp world is fine with this, just look any forms that have a super, and it's a little too late to go back and call one copies het. snow and super snows, snows.

The confusion is caused by using terminology not in keeping with it's generally accepted meaning, whether or not your right is moot. You can do it, but you're the ones causing the confusion if you start talking like this.

I've got my residency in the state of Confusion, and don't need any more piled on top.

That's my last two cents worth. I'm gonna go back to being a spectator, which is probably what I should have stayed in the first place.

 

[M_surinamensis]

The confusion is caused by using terminology not in keeping with it's generally accepted meaning, whether or not your right is moot. You can do it, but you're the ones causing the confusion if you start talking like this.

Being right is never moot. Especially not if someone else is wrong. If the majority is wrong, that doesn't somehow turn around and make them right about the meaning of a word.

Shrugging and just rolling with it because "everyone else does it" is responsible for the degradation of language and meaning. It is the antithesis of effective communication to let such blunders and misimpressions pass by without comment.

Method of transmission relative to expression and allele pairing aren't identical subjects. Related but not identical. They should not be shoved together and treated as synonymous.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Well I think you may be confused a bit more then just on the term het. You are unable to have an animal het for a dominant trait. When working with dominant trait the animal does or does not exhibit the trait.

As far has stating if a Snow is het for super or not shouldn't be a discussion. The terminology we use is standard through out the reptile industry. I don't see BP people stating " I have a Cinny or Pastel het for Super Cinny or Super Pastel"

Whether or not how we describe the morph doesn't matter as long as the understanding that the morph is recessive, co-dom, dom or what have you is honestly the only thing that matters.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Well I think you may be confused a bit more then just on the term het. You are unable to have an animal het for a dominant trait. When working with dominant trait the animal does or does not exhibit the trait.

That is incorrect. Flagrantly incorrect. And the entire basis of the discussion.

 

[Tony C]

Well I think you may be confused a bit more then just on the term het. You are unable to have an animal het for a dominant trait. When working with dominant trait the animal does or does not exhibit the trait.

As far has stating if a Snow is het for super or not shouldn't be a discussion. The terminology we use is standard through out the reptile industry. I don't see BP people stating " I have a Cinny or Pastel het for Super Cinny or Super Pastel"

Whether or not how we describe the morph doesn't matter as long as the understanding that the morph is recessive, co-dom, dom or what have you is honestly the only thing that matters.

You absolutely can have an organism het for a dominant trait, most Enigmas out there are hets. You are confusing "heterozygous" with "carrier".

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

So a normal gecko can be het for enigma...so if i breed a normal gecko from an enigma cross to a non enigma i will get enigmas?

 

[OhioGecko]

OK, we are talking in two different discussions here. Technically Dominant, Co-Dominant, and simple recessive can all have hets. But..... like some stated earlier in the thread it confuses people when generally used and in the context it is used.

This whole thread came from the Black Pearl thread where the discussion of whether the BP trait was co dominant or simple recessive. The word "het" was being used for the simple recessive morph and it was taken out of context and applied to the co-dominant genetics!

Co dominant is : aa aB BB there is two different alles in the aB genetics making it heterozygous. BB is the Super form and homozygous. aa is the normals.

Dominant: aa aB BB where you can not tell the difference between aB and BB because B is dominant, but there is a heterozygous and homozygous form. aB is the heterozygous form.

Heterozygous: aa aB BB this is where aa displays the recessive genetics and it does not display on the aB or BB the aB is heterozygous form.

Anytime a gene shares two different alles it makes that gene heterozygous. This is the technical description.

But again we do not label reptiles het Mack Snow, Super Snow or Enigmas (het Enigma)

My piece is said If I messed up my genetics or if someone can explain them in a better way, please do so in this thread.

 

[OhioGecko]

So a normal gecko can be het for enigma...so if i breed a normal gecko from an enigma cross to a non enigma i will get enigmas?

Most Enigmas are the heterozygous form and they will produce 50% Enigmas.

Homozygous Enigmas will produce 100% Enigmas, the only way to tell if an Enigma is Homozygous is by test breeding, there is no physical markers.

 

[Northstar Herp]

Alright, I can't stand it...

I think Thad summed it up pretty succinctly. My question is-

Guys (and gals) who are on "the other side", the het. side, if you will, what should we do then? I'm trying to get at the point of all this discussion. I think at least most of us understand and agree on what it means for an animal to be het for a trait, be it dominant, co-dom or recessive. As Thad has said, the argument here is whether to label dominant and co-dom 1 copies as het. So are you guys saying that we should start calling 1 copies "het. snow" and 2 copies "snows"?

 

[Tony C]

So a normal gecko can be het for enigma...so if i breed a normal gecko from an enigma cross to a non enigma i will get enigmas?

No, a visibly normal gecko can not be het for Enigma, but most Enigmas are heterozygous. A Dominant trait is fully expressed in both heterozygous and homozygous individuals.

 

[Tony C]

Alright, I can't stand it...

I think Thad summed it up pretty succinctly. My question is-

Guys (and gals) who are on "the other side", the het. side, if you will, what should we do then? I'm trying to get at the point of all this discussion. I think at least most of us understand and agree on what it means for an animal to be het for a trait, be it dominant, co-dom or recessive. As Thad has said, the argument here is whether to label dominant and co-dom 1 copies as het. So are you guys saying that we should start calling 1 copies "het. snow" and 2 copies "snows"?

The point is to clear up misinformation that is common in the hobby. I see nothing wrong with the way geckos are currently marketed.

 

[Northstar Herp]

So Tony, your point would be for people just to know that what is commonly called a "snow" is really a "het snow", and that a true "snow" is really what is commonly called a "super snow"?

 

[Tony C]

No, the point is that the people who always say "There is no such thing as a heterozygous Enigma" or "There is no such thing as a heterozygous snow" are incorrect and entrench mistaken ideas in peoples heads that make understanding genetics much more difficult than it really is.

 

[Tony C]

Here are a few definitions from my genetics textbook that may help:

Gene - Genetic factor that helps determine a trait.

Allele - One of two or more alternate forms of a gene.

Locus - Position on a chromosome where a specific gene is located.

Phenotype - Appearance or manifestation of a characteristic.

Heterozygous - Refers to an individual organism that possesses two different alleles at a locus.

Homozygous - Refers to an individual organism that possesses two Identical alleles at a locus.

Dominant - Refers to an allele or a phenotype that is expressed in Homozygotes and Heterozygotes; only the dominant allele is expressed in a homozygote phenotype.

Codominance - Type of allelic interaction in which the heterozygote simultaneously expresses traits of both homozygotes.

Incomplete Dominance - Refers to the phenotype of a heterozygote that is intermediate between the phenotypes of the two homozygotes.

Recessive - Refers to an allele or phenotype that is expressed only when homozygous; the recessive allele is not expressed in the heterozygote phenotype.

 

[yellermelon]

OK, we are talking in two different discussions here. Technically Dominant, Co-Dominant, and simple recessive can all have hets. But..... like some stated earlier in the thread it confuses people when generally used and in the context it is used.

This whole thread came from the Black Pearl thread where the discussion of whether the BP trait was co dominant or simple recessive. The word "het" was being used for the simple recessive morph and it was taken out of context and applied to the co-dominant genetics!

Co dominant is : aa aB BB there is two different alles in the aB genetics making it heterozygous. BB is the Super form and homozygous. aa is the normals.

Dominant: aa aB BB where you can not tell the difference between aB and BB because B is dominant, but there is a heterozygous and homozygous form. aB is the heterozygous form.

Heterozygous: aa aB BB this is where aa displays the recessive genetics and it does not display on the aB or BB the aB is heterozygous form.

Anytime a gene shares two different alles it makes that gene heterozygous. This is the technical description.

But again we do not label reptiles het Mack Snow, Super Snow or Enigmas (het Enigma)

My piece is said If I messed up my genetics or if someone can explain them in a better way, please do so in this thread.

\

Most Enigmas are the heterozygous form and they will produce 50% Enigmas.

Homozygous Enigmas will produce 100% Enigmas, the only way to tell if an Enigma is Homozygous is by test breeding, there is no physical markers.

Both true statements I agree with. Thanks Im done!

 

[Northstar Herp]

So there's no way for you to be satisfied in this discussion then?

 

[Tony C]

So there's no way for you to be satisfied in this discussion then?

I would be satisfied if this thread helps someone to better understand genetics.

 

[yellermelon]

I would be satisfied if this thread helps someone to better understand genetics.

i think it will do the opposite. Tony. I see what your trying to do and understand, but a new person trying to learn everyday call names of gecko genetics ..this thread is gonna throw them for a loop!!!!

 

[Tony C]

i think it will do the opposite. Tony. I see what your trying to do and understand, but a new person trying to learn everyday call names of gecko genetics ..this thread is gonna throw them for a loop!!!!

I think it is much easier to learn the correct information in the beginning rather than learning it incorrectly then having to forget that bad info and relearn the right stuff later.