Halloween Mask

[Laska]

Kevin- We went over what an HM is. Its a polygenetic line bred leo. Stemming from the original creaters- Albey and Paul.

Bliss- Just because they look the same- doesnt not mean all leo's carry the same genetics, if you want to get into puting things in categories like that your looking and emerines-tangerines etc being the same thing if you judge on looks- this is what we are getting at by asking questions @ the breeder on genetics and knowing what your buying.

And also like said above if you recreate it using NO blood from the HM line you can call it what you want over time and proving you can duplicate the exact characteristics. And to add- the AHB's- sometimes you can cross to Bolds together to get a crazy looking head pattern- BUT that does not mean you have Afghanicus- Halloween Mask and Bold Blood. I hope this makes sense. Its genetics made difficult in a nutshell Its best not to think of calling something is not- CASE IN POINT this thread and people thinking some BOLDS can get passed off as HM's when their not.

Even if 2 leo's look identical- check the genetics- and class them by genetics not looks alone. If anyone does this- they are making quite a few people upset.... including me

Hope this sums it up for you guys- they were loaded questions lol

 

[Bliss]

Thankyou John.

I'm just putting the questions out there to hopefully get clear answers so everyone understands including myself. I totally understand what your saying and it makes perfect sense.
Morphs can be confusing at the best of times so this is an excellent thread to hopefully enlighten us all about the HM and clear a few things up.

 

[KevinS]

And also like said above if you recreate it using NO blood from the HM line you can call it what you want over time and proving you can duplicate the exact characteristics.

Can this even be said for HMs? If I understood correctly, the geckos in the original post were from pure HM parents, but have normal head patterns because this "morph" is so variable. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, but the word "genetics" keeps getting thrown around here as if this trait is inheritable. Based on what I'm seeing, it's a bloodline that tends to throw some unique head patterns, but you could also get relatively normal geckos from it as well. So while you can get some selectively bred geckos with cool patterns, I don't understand what should make a normal looking gecko from this line more valuable since there are no het HMs.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

If I understood correctly, the geckos in the original post were from pure HM parents, but have normal head patterns because this "morph" is so variable.

If you are referring to the pictures of the two geckos in the first post of this thread, then you are not understanding correctly because those are not from HM parents at all. I have hatched out 12 "pure" HM baby's this year and every one has the signature bold head pattern associated with this morph. There have been no "normal" looking baby's at all. And yes, my bloodline stems from Paul Allen originally. I hope this helps clear up what your asking,

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

As Chris said, my pictures were not HM at all. I was simply trying to see how other breeders and the average gecko person perceives this morph. Someone argued with me that my animals were HM and thus this thread. HM all derived from Ron from a "designer" project that was then acquired by Albey then later on Paul. The morph itself has very little written requirements from the producers in order to be called a HM. Their basic traits are Bold heads with busy pattern. The pattern can and does vary between them. It is also believed that Bandits derived from this project as well so HM may also have a banded nose.

As far as anything looking similar being called a HM...that's bad practice and EXACTLY why I made this thread. Too many people are passing off animals that LOOK similar but are not from those lines. Phenotype does not mean it has similar Genotype. Also I am not positive on this but Albey and Paul worked on the same project...but I don't know if they were both shooting for the same appearance. Since this is a polygenetic mutation I would find it safe to say that there would be two different lines of HM.

 

[KevinS]

Thanks for clarifying, apparently I was confused about the parents of those pictured in the first post. I read this thread partially last night and partially this morning so I must have gotten something wrong in the transition.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

As far as anything looking similar being called a HM...that's bad practice and EXACTLY why I made this thread. Too many people are passing off animals that LOOK similar but are not from those lines. Phenotype does not mean it has similar Genotype. Also I am not positive on this but Albey and Paul worked on the same project...but I don't know if they were both shooting for the same appearance. Since this is a polygenetic mutation I would find it safe to say that there would be two different lines of HM.

Paul Allen bought the entire HM project from Albey several years ago. When Paul Allen made the decision to give up his geckos, he sold many of them to other breeders, and what was left to one breeder in particular. Unless a gecko has 100% HM genetics from this line, they are NOT Halloween Masks. Most breeders who have been working with the HMs have crossed them into Bolds, Stripes, Afghans, and other uniquely patterned morphs to produce lovely consistently unique patterned crosses. Once this is done, the Halloween Mask 'morph' is no longer an HM. Hopefully, some of the breeders working with them are continuing to keep the line pure as well.

Now that people are inaccurately calling geckos with similar head patterns "Halloween Masks", it wouldn't surprise me if they started claiming they came from the pure line, too. With so much indiscriminate crossing of established morphs, my faith in much of the leopard gecko breeding community to provide full and honest disclosure of the animals they breed is next to nothing.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I was aware of Albey selling to Paul...but anything prior to that sale would have possibly been a different take on the project. Sadly I know of a breeder who has claimed they have Pure HM and they confidently told me where they got them from...which means that breeder also lied to them or was lied to. Hopefully anyone with a pure line will keep it that.

 

[Laska]

I will speak only for myself- I own lines that direct from Chris on the HM side I also own a HM Bandit Bold- named Titan from Britney who purchased him in 10' from Eric Bristow and Bristow bought direct from Paul when Titan was 6g and I even have the 09' Titan hatch date. 3 lines before I got him- BUT I found out and have those records! Like Ive said ask questions. I have more information than I ever dreamed of having. AND Im glad I did my research. RECORDS my friends is the key to weeding out the "look alikes." So as far as Im concerned if someone has a problem with taking a phone or email going thru the grapevine back to Paul then Id be very leery of buying from them. Seriously if someone asked me where they came from I would give them everything I have with a contact- and the people Ive dealt with have no problems talking on the phone,email or anything- especially not to prove they have the real deal. Want to keep our prices @ what they are... and not be degraded for our hard work and money then keep your records, contacts and every little piece of info possible. Proper record keeping will keep things in order like they should be. Yeah people can make up lies and paperwork-BUT if you go thru the grapevine someone is going to say "NO that wasnt me" get my drift... Money is hard to come by both ways nowadays-everyone works hard for it, so atleast for me taking the time to properly buy a legitimate gecko I have no problem waiting and doing what Ive said Hope this helps some guys... otherwise Im just rambling which isnt uncommon for me @ times

 

[eyelids]

They should have never been bred to other 'morphs'. That is the bottom line. Of course that is just my opinion... :main_cool3:

 

[Laska]

As Chris said, my pictures were not HM at all. I was simply trying to see how other breeders and the average gecko person perceives this morph. Someone argued with me that my animals were HM and thus this thread. HM all derived from Ron from a "designer" project that was then acquired by Albey then later on Paul. The morph itself has very little written requirements from the producers in order to be called a HM. Their basic traits are Bold heads with busy pattern. The pattern can and does vary between them. It is also believed that Bandits derived from this project as well so HM may also have a banded nose.

As far as anything looking similar being called a HM...that's bad practice and EXACTLY why I made this thread. Too many people are passing off animals that LOOK similar but are not from those lines. Phenotype does not mean it has similar Genotype. Also I am not positive on this but Albey and Paul worked on the same project...but I don't know if they were both shooting for the same appearance. Since this is a polygenetic mutation I would find it safe to say that there would be two different lines of HM.

Read the bold part- then look back @ my HM hatchlings I specifically picked these 2 out for that reason I love bandits and whats better than a cpl Hm's that are bandits! :main_thumbsup:

 

[Laska]

They should have never been bred to other 'morphs'. That is the bottom line. Of course that is just my opinion... :main_cool3:

HOW DARE YOU! lmao J/K

 

[Select Gex]

I guess you all have probably read this interview with Albey about the original halloween mask leopard gecko trait?

 

[Laska]

Yeah, bottom of that article- the video @ 1:18 is Titan my Male. Thx for the link!